Thermopylae Film!

[Ghostmojo]

Still looking forward to a decent movie (or mini series on the subject of the thread though) :wink:

Me too! :-D Unless of course Lyceum is directing :wink: - in which case we may be treated to the Greeks being walked all over on day one by the superior Persians, without so much as an aspis being raised. However, it would be a far shorter film for those who think the three days repulsing the might of Asia; the betrayal by Ephialtes; and the final stand on Kolonos Hill is just a bit too drawn out! :lol:

[Lyceum]

Still looking forward to a decent movie (or mini series on the subject of the thread though) :wink:

Me too! :-D Unless of course Lyceum is directing :wink: - in which case we may be treated to the Greeks being walked all over on day one by the superior Persians, without so much as an aspis being raised. However, it would be a far shorter film for those who think the three days repulsing the might of Asia; the betrayal by Ephialtes; and the final stand on Kolonos Hill is just a bit too drawn out! :lol:

How the hell did you get that from what I was saying? ma ton kyna ouk exei myalo o kosmos! nomizw oti menw meta tous sofous kai oxi tous ilithious!

[Ghostmojo]

Still looking forward to a decent movie (or mini series on the subject of the thread though) :wink:

Me too! :-D Unless of course Lyceum is directing :wink: - in which case we may be treated to the Greeks being walked all over on day one by the superior Persians, without so much as an aspis being raised. However, it would be a far shorter film for those who think the three days repulsing the might of Asia; the betrayal by Ephialtes; and the final stand on Kolonos Hill is just a bit too drawn out! :lol:

How the hell did you get that from what I was saying? ma ton kyna ouk exei myalo o kosmos! nomizw oti menw meta tous sofous kai oxi tous ilithious!

Lighten up Jass - only pulling your leg! :lol:

[Dithrambus]

Okay, had to go to work, home now and glad to see you lads have behaved yourselves!

Lots of excellent points made from all who have contributed to what has become a really interesting thread! I thought it would simply be fun to talk about what we would all like to see in a film on this subject, had no ideal that it would stir such lively debate! :-D

One thing concerning 1962s T300S that none of us have pointed out is the fact that the film was a cold war era, west vs east, democracy vs communism propaganda film, I am sure at least some of you will remember the not so subliminal messages that would pop up in the films original version, such as FREEDOM etc. Those pop ups do not appear in the DVD version that I have, unless they happen so quick as to be unnoticeable. 300 was arguably of the same ilk. As I stated at the beginning of the thread, I feel that the story should be told from BOTH Persian and Greek perspectives, otherwise it is simply one sided and therefore accuracy becomes impossible, I mean it doesn't matter if the names, dates, places and armour are correct, if the context of the time (as viewed from both sides) isn't portrayed, then the film/series is not a fully historically accurate account...simple as that.

Now, I am not inviting a political discussion as that would violate forum rules and would only serve to have an otherwise awesome thread locked down, just thought that the ramifications (that should be avoided in a proper production) of the aforementioned films should be acknowledged. :-)

[Ghostmojo]

I agree with you Mark. There is an excellent, deep and lengthy story to be told there if all aspects are considered:

(a) Leonidas I's personal story - man/commander/diplomat etc.
(b) Other Spartans accompanying him - Dienekes etc.
© Demophilos and the Thespians and other Greeks - leaders and men (8000 after all)
(d) Xerxes' story - man/tyrant/motivations
(e) Hydarnes, Tigranes and other Persians etc.
(f) Demaratos' story - exiled king/traitor etc.
(g) Events leading up to the battle
(h) Significance of the Phokian Wall
(i) Three days in the pass
(j) Artemision - happening concurrently
(k) Ephilates' story
(l) The outflanking march and the Phokians
(m) Final all-out clash
(n) The Thebans' story
(o) Death of Leonidas
(p) Kolonos Hill
(q) The aftermath inc. mention of Salamis, Plataia, Mykale etc.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, to be honest, that is also a feature of the Pressfield book I enjoyed.
Yes, both sides would need to be portrayed, accurately.
Rhinocerous headed soldiers I don't recall in Herodotus.

[Dithrambus]

Well, to be honest, that is also a feature of the Pressfield book I enjoyed.
Yes, both sides would need to be portrayed, accurately.
Rhinocerous headed soldiers I don't recall in Herodotus.

I don't remember any fanged ninjas in Herodotus either! :lol:

Good point Byron, Steve P. did a wonderful job of NOT demonizing the Persian forces, the Egyptian "Tommy" and Dienekes are presented as two men who would have likely been fast friends under different circumstances, even given the circumstances there is still a profound respect between the two. There are also plenty of other examples of mutual respect found in Gates.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It reawakened my passion for ancient Greece, and I guess i will have a soft spot for it over everything else, regardless! It's what I measure everything else by, right or wrong. mile:

[Dithrambus]

It reawakened my passion for ancient Greece, and I guess i will have a soft spot for it over everything else, regardless! It's what I measure everything else by, right or wrong. mile:

Oh yes, I read very little historical fiction, but unfortunately for other authors, I invariably measure their work against Steve's when I do. :-)

[Lyceum]

Really? I thought the Pressfield book was ok but there wasn't much "Greek" about it. I think by far the best books I've read on Greece have been the first two Christian Cameron novels, the Tyrant series. If you haven't read them you definitely should, as I believe I've told Dithyrambus before, they definitely get the Classicist seal of approval. They're pretty cheap right now on Amazon too.

As for the film, I still think a series detailing Persian/Mainland Greek/Ionian Greek interactions would be amazing. The death of Leonidas is a problem...in one sense it's the climax but you can't end there, thematically it would make no sense. We also need some Themistoklis love.

[Dithrambus]

Really? I thought the Pressfield book was ok but there wasn't much "Greek" about it. I think by far the best books I've read on Greece have been the first two Christian Cameron novels, the Tyrant series. If you haven't read them you definitely should, as I believe I've told Dithyrambus before, they definitely get the Classicist seal of approval. They're pretty cheap right now on Amazon too.

As for the film, I still think a series detailing Persian/Mainland Greek/Ionian Greek interactions would be amazing. The death of Leonidas is a problem...in one sense it's the climax but you can't end there, thematically it would make no sense. We also need some Themistoklis love.

I was "introduced" to Steve P. through a mutual friend and we have shared some thoughts through emails, he is just such a wonderful man that my partiality may be unfair to other authors, as I said, I read very little historical fiction (or any other fiction for that matter) I really should read some of Christian's books though, he is a great guy also and everyone raves about the Tyrant series. mile:

And yes, Themistokles would definitely have to be a part of any portrayal of this subject, which is one of several reasons a properly told story would need to begin several years before the battle at Thermopylae.

[Lyceum]

We've been talking about the need for going back and back for a while now and I can't help but be reminded of the function of the proemium/invocatio caminae in traditional Greek narrative epic.

Andra moi ennepe mousa polutropon...
tell unto me O muse of the clever man...because if you don't tell me where to begin I'll have to start with the creation and work my way down to him. :lol:

[Dithrambus]

We've been talking about the need for going back and back for a while now and I can't help but be reminded of the function of the proemium/invocatio caminae in traditional Greek narrative epic.

Andra moi ennepe mousa polutropon...
tell unto me O muse of the clever man...because if you don't tell me where to begin I'll have to start with the creation and work my way down to him. :lol:

As they say, "Start at the beginning" :lol:

Edit: I am reminded of the scene in the film Airplane! when the guy says "start at the beginning" and the other guy says "well, first there were the dinosaurs.." :lol: :lol:

[Dithrambus]

I agree with you Mark. There is an excellent, deep and lengthy story to be told there if all aspects are considered:

(a) Leonidas I's personal story - man/commander/diplomat etc.
(b) Other Spartans accompanying him - Dienekes etc.
© Demophilos and the Thespians and other Greeks - leaders and men (8000 after all)
(d) Xerxes' story - man/tyrant/motivations
(e) Hydarnes, Tigranes and other Persians etc.
(f) Demaratos' story - exiled king/traitor etc.
(g) Events leading up to the battle
(h) Significance of the Phokian Wall
(i) Three days in the pass
(j) Artemision - happening concurrently
(k) Ephilates' story
(l) The outflanking march and the Phokians
(m) Final all-out clash
(n) The Thebans' story
(o) Death of Leonidas
(p) Kolonos Hill
(q) The aftermath inc. mention of Salamis, Plataia, Mykale etc.

Spot on Howard, though I would think the battle at Plataia should be included (perhaps not just a mention?), and as you said, at least a mention of Mykale (too many do not realize the scale and importance of the battle at Mykale, though I have done my small part to bring attention to the battle, I wrote an article about it for a blog a few years ago and started a thread on that very topic here back in 2010)

[Ghostmojo]

... And yes, Themistokles would definitely have to be a part of any portrayal of this subject, which is one of several reasons a properly told story would need to begin several years before the battle at Thermopylae.

Agreed regarding Themistokles, Mark; but I would be careful in trying to tell the whole of the Persian Wars/Ionian Revolt etc. in what is effectively a film about a brave last stand.

One thing the 1962 film did get right was including the conference at Korinth. That would be a good place to start. The representatives there could almost tell the story up to that point (for the audience) in their discussions. A quick resume of Marathon and Darios, the Ionian Revolt etc. could start things followed by perhaps a brief mention of the Tempe expedition (and brief inclusion of Alexander I of Makedon to really wind up FYROM movie-goers!) would help set the scene that the Persian juggernaut was on its way? Mention should also be made (or shown) of the Earth & Water heralds to Athens and Sparta (which is something 300 did show - in its own bizarre way).

Then it's back to Sparta for Leonidas and his debate with the Ephors, Gerousia etc. as to how to respond - the whole Karneia festival issue (and associated politics) - and Leonidas marching north with only 300 homoioi, 900 (?) helots and perhaps 1000 periokoi.

On the way he is joined by other Peloponnesians and then the central Greeks until he reaches the pass. They then set about rebuilding the decaying Phokian Wall and sending some scouts ahead to see what Xerxes is up to.

... though I would think the battle at Plataia should be included (perhaps not just a mention?), and as you said, at least a mention of Mykale ...

Yes. Another thing 300 got right was ending on a high note. Some way, briefly, the Greeks have to be shown to be ultimately victorious in an epilogue. Snatches of fighting at Plataia and Mykale would emphasise this. As Jass wisely reminds us we can't end on a bummer. The audience needs a pay-off and the Persians beating a hasty retreat after either Mykale or Plataia would help that. But the final scenes have to return to the pass perhaps? With (like in 1962) a reading of Simonides' epitaph maybe?