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Thermopylae Film!
#31
Quote:Very interesting discussion and many good points have been made.

A couple of thoughts if I may ...


First, Pop Classics (who has a degree in the classics) has just written a very amusing review of that old Hollywood Warhorse, The 300 Spartans. You will find her review here:

http://popclassicsjg.blogspot.com/

For those who may not be familiar with her blog, I recommend it highly -- her writing is excellent and her wit quite sharp. (That said, I do like this film more than she does. :wink: )

And second, with regards to a new film about this battle, as several others have said, we should think not in terms of a feature film, but rather of a limited series, a format currently being used with great success by HBO. Even with a single season of 10 - 13 episodes there would be ample time to allow the story to develop and for the characters to become three dimensional.

I think Pressfield's book would be a good start and if not the source material than perhaps the series "bible" so to speak. (I agree that the HBO Rome series would have been more fun if they had started earlier in the time line, say with Sulla. They should have used Tom Holland's book, Rubicon, as their series bible.)

If funding could be found, this series might be able to pull off the fabled "Hat Trick" --
Be entertaining
Be historically accurate
Be profitable


And finally, as others have noted, George Clooney did option the rights to Gates Of Fire (I once found a pre-publication copy of the book with a cover sheet outlining Clooney's involvement. It was siting at a used bookstore in North Hollywood - Would that I had the wit to purchase that copy.) but the project never got out of Development Hell thanks in large part to all of the other films that did make it before the cameras only to stumble at the box office. After all, they call it Show Business for a reason. More is the pity.

:wink:

Narukami

Hey I kinda like her! I agree with her assessment (for the most part) of The 300 Spartans, but I think she is wrong that it contains too much history, not enough in my opinion. Interesting blog though, bookmarked for later.. Confusedmile:
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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#32
I was going to comment on the blog...but....I know who the blogstress is basically (though not close, through other associates etc) and as such it would be massively unprofessional to do so. So I shan't comment.

As for childrens books..well..Xenophon's Anabasis. Every 14 year old boys dream. Failing that there's even a popular fantasy version out, though I forget everything about it...sorry.

EDIT: It's: Kearney, P (2008) The Ten Thousand. Maybe one day I'll read it
Jass
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#33
Quote:I was going to comment on the blog...but....I know who the blogstress is basically (though not close, through other associates etc) and as such it would be massively unprofessional to do so. So I shan't comment

Well I don't, and so I will (here) - I thought her ramblings were rather pseudo-intellectual and juvenile. If she has serious knowledge of the classics it doesn't show! There is no proper understanding of the relevance of the absence of detailed history in that film; she fails to acknowledge the Leonidas age issue; she tacitly accepts the Ellas love story bit!; she makes comparisons with '300' which are pointless (especially since the latter film was still some 40 odd years in the future); doesn't mention anything about other Greeks at Thermopylai apart from Athenians; and then wanders off into discussing later conflicts which engulfed the area (so what?) without realising the point about the Greek victory in the Persian Wars was it allowed classical Greek culture to flourish - and thereby influence the later wider world, which it wouldn't necessarily have done under the Persian yoke. Full marks to her for bothering of course.

Judging by her photo she looks young and perhaps a bit naive, so perhaps we shouldn't expect much - ditto the 'sword and sandals' mini-epic of 1962!

I accept that it is a Pop Classics observation, but am surprised (and somewhat dismayed) by her Californish vocabulary given she appears to be a Brit! Yay!!! :twisted:
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#34
I...sort of love you now haha :S Though I disagree rather strongly about the bit about Classical culture flourishing/rest of the world etc etc...I would definitely call that the pop view rather than the (growing) specialist one since we've moved on from that.
Jass
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#35
Quote:I...sort of love you now haha :S Though I disagree rather strongly about the bit about Classical culture flourishing/rest of the world etc etc...I would definitely call that the pop view rather than the (growing) specialist one since we've moved on from that.

In what respect? Surely the glory that was Greece came in the period following the Persian Wars? Would we have had the finery of the rebuilt Acropolis (influencing architecture righ until the modern day)? Would the later Hellenisation of the Eastern Mediterranean and Near East have happened? Would we have had the great Library of Alexandria? Would the myriad instances of the explosion of Greek thought, science, literature, politics, etc. etc. have occurred in the same way? Unlikely.

The Spartans didn't fight to save the future of the western world - or even the whole of Greece - but unwittingly they did. Not so much Thermopylai (which was a Dunkirk moment of inspired resolve) but Salamis, Plataia, Mykale etc. later basically said - this is where it stops (the western expansion of Persia) and this is where it starts to reverse.
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#36
I didn't take it too seriously and she seems a fun person, frankly I thought it was meant to be at least somewhat tongue in cheek. :-)
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
Reply
#37
Quote:I didn't take it too seriously and she seems a fun person, frankly I thought it was meant to be at least somewhat tongue in cheek. :-)

Perhaps? :-| You're up early by the way! :o :lol:
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
Reply
#38
That is the truth Howard. I'm not sure where this "new thought" comes from, mostly inspired by those who want to ruin Greece's reputation overall. Nothing to do with history, but modern politics.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#39
Quote:
Lyceum post=306094 Wrote:I...sort of love you now haha :S Though I disagree rather strongly about the bit about Classical culture flourishing/rest of the world etc etc...I would definitely call that the pop view rather than the (growing) specialist one since we've moved on from that.

In what respect? Surely the glory that was Greece came in the period following the Persian Wars? Would we have had the finery of the rebuilt Acropolis (influencing architecture righ until the modern day)? Would the later Hellenisation of the Eastern Mediterranean and Near East have happened? Would we have had the great Library of Alexandria? Would the myriad instances of the explosion of Greek thought, science, literature, politics, etc. etc. have occurred in the same way? Unlikely.

The Spartans didn't fight to save the future of the western world - or even the whole of Greece - but unwittingly they did. Not so much Thermopylai (which was a Dunkirk moment of inspired resolve) but Salamis, Plataia, Mykale etc. later basically said - this is where it stops (the western expansion of Persia) and this is where it starts to reverse.

Well the problem is that opinion immediately opens up too many untestable hypothesis, for one how do we know what Akhaimenian domination would effected things? what do we know of their "plans" anyway? Also conversely it was never the mainland but Mikrasia which was by far the more advanced area. I mean by far.

The rest is much more...complex. Firstly positing the Greeks as the springboard, or crucible, of a civilisation contiguous down to our own day is insanely problematic and indeed we call this logically untenable argument "the American viewpoint". The reality is faaar more multi-faceted. Outside of simply being unable to prove a link with ancient Greece you have the simple fact that Greek culture did not spring out of nowhere but was in fact part of a much wider cultural area. It's just...look it's much better if I just give you literature than open this can of worms, trick Burkert's "Orientalizing Revolution", it's a good introduction though it's quite broad and already assumes a really strong grasp of many aspects of Greek culture.

Basically this kind of thing is why I disagree with the reviewer and people of that style: there is a firm "cultural context" vs "Reception" divide in classical scholarship and I'm firmly in the former.

EDIT: Also can I say, hey the Archaic Age (my area) was not at all that bacwkards btw. What we call the Classical age is largely arbitrary by the way ,in terms of literature, political thought etc honestly I think there is something to be said for Sappho, Alkaios, Hesiod etc.

I think a lot of our viewpoints on this are actually thanks to Romans, but that's another story.
Jass
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#40
Quote:That is the truth Howard. I'm not sure where this "new thought" comes from, mostly inspired by those who want to ruin Greece's reputation overall. Nothing to do with history, but modern politics.

Are you referring to what I said? "new thought" as you put it, not that new actually, is a result of the significantly better tools across the board we have now (linguistics, cultural anthropology, archaeology etc etc) and generally a higher level of scholarship since the days of the gentleman dilettante have long passed.

I'm not sure how careful reassessment of source evidence has lead you to conclude "politics" is the reason, if anything the older ideology was more politically driven. Clearly you know better than the hoards of professionals out there though, eh?
Jass
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#41
I'm not going to get into an open-ended debate on this one with you Lyceum.

My point was made succinctly. History is what it is - or at least what it appears to be. Under a Persian Empire, Greek culture might have expanded, who knows? But it quite manifestly would not have happened in the same way. As you say we don't know what would have happened - we only know what did...
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
Reply
#42
Quote:I'm not going to get into an open-ended debate on this one with you Lyceum.

My point was made succinctly. History is what it is - or at least what it appears to be. Under a Persian Empire, Greek culture might have expanded, who knows? But it quite manifestly would not have happened in the same way. As you say we don't know what would have happened - we only know what did...

True, but what "did happen" tends to me misconstrued. Ignoring the context in which Greek culture was wrought will only compound difficulties. I'm merely stating the following, obvious thing:

1) Greek culture was not a self contained sprung out of nowhere in the first place. Certainly not the Classical period itself. We ignore the near Eastern context, we ignore the widely variant epichoric traditions and we postulate a link between our civilisation and theirs at our peril.

2) Many of the roots of what we call the "Classical" culture were quite firmly routed in the archaic age, the Classical age was not that innovative frankly and the "praise" out to lie elsewhere.

3) What we call Greek culture was already heavily influenced by, and influencing the "East" anyway. I think problems have arisen simply because until recently we conflated Athenian with Greece, Greece with West, West with us rather uncritically.

I'm sure an Ionian or a Cyrenaican saw things much differently, incidentally.
Jass
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#43
While I may not be a rocket scientist, there is evidence enough to prove it is true enough.
The politics, well there are always people who wish to prove them selves superior to everyone else.
Can you find supply the names and articles of these professionals who are rewriting history?
Western society, and a few others, have benefitted immensely from Ancient Greece's culture,
it's not really debateable, it is there for all to see. 8-)
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#44
Quote:While I may not be a rocket scientist, there is evidence enough to prove it is true enough.
The politics, well there are always people who wish to prove them selves superior to everyone else.
Can you find supply the names and articles of these professionals who are rewriting history?
Western society, and a few others, have benefitted immensely from Ancient Greece's culture,
it's not really debateable, it is there for all to see. 8-)

Benefiting from is not the same as claiming we're essentially the same/descendents of. History is much more complex.

Hollywood for example owes a ridiculous debt to Homer in terms of structural technique etc. On another hand though we call it "democracy" however providing a logical link that far back is difficult, whereas its quite easy to trace the origins of much of our political thought to Germanic tribalism/Roman influence. Yes we've been influenced in interesting ways from the Renn onwards, that is not to posit contiguity.
Jass
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#45
OK, where you are going with this is not clear so I will only say that yes, I cannot trace my Greek relatives past the War of independance, because the Ottomans did not keep records of greek lineage.
That is not the point being made though, so I think I will leave this discussion.

Still looking forward to a decent movie (or mini series on the subject of the thread though) :wink:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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