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Last Legion Standing
#1
Hi Again

Long time since I posted - been back at Uni in a second life studying archaeology and Greek-and-Latin. One year down - "x" to go.

Main interest still later Roman legions. Which survived the longest?

Anyone able to top these?

Mattiarii (? Seniores - the Juniores being massacred at Adrianople) represented in 457 AD because Leo, their tribune, was proposed for the purple by them.

Lanciarii (?Seniores? Juniores?) 518 AD - their campidoctor proclaims Justin I.

I'm very interested in the longevity of older legions too. e.g. V Macedonia, III Cyrenacia.

Anybody??

Cheers

Howard/SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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#2
I consider this to be very interesting theme too ;-) .I know about VICTORES and some other unit with them that were still around during first half of the tenth century at least.There is one topic in ANCIENT WARFARE MAGAZIN from Ross Cowan which you might find useful.It aimed legio.v.Macedonica but mentions also other units,or in Byzantium and Its Army, 284-1081 from Warren Treadgold you can find somewhat scattered informations.John of Epiphania and Theophylact Simocatta mention something what they called legions in Chalkis.Other late antique authors also sometimes use term Legion for units of their own time...
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#3
Quote:Hi Again

Long time since I posted - been back at Uni in a second life studying archaeology and Greek-and-Latin. One year down - "x" to go.

Main interest still later Roman legions. Which survived the longest?

Anyone able to top these?

Mattiarii (? Seniores - the Juniores being massacred at Adrianople) represented in 457 AD because Leo, their tribune, was proposed for the purple by them.

Lanciarii (?Seniores? Juniores?) 518 AD - their campidoctor proclaims Justin I.

I'm very interested in the longevity of older legions too. e.g. V Macedonia, III Cyrenacia.

Anybody??

Cheers

Howard/SPC

There are multiple posts here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=112
which discuss the longetivity of the Roman Legions. Quinta Macedonia I believe survived into the 7th Century
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#4
Among the legions last standing would also be the following:

Ioannes, domesticus of a „numerus Dacorum“ set up an inscription in Italy in the early 7th century (P.Ital. 18-19,B 29; 64), this is likely the legio „Daci“ (ND Or. V, 3). Several other late roman units are also attested in Italy (see Rance, Narses and the Battle of Taginae (Busta Gallorum) 552: Procopius and Sixth-Century Warfare).

According to Theophylact (2.1.6-9), a soldier of the Quartoparthoi suffered terrible wounds in a battle in 586 AD; this is likely the legio IV Parthica.
Regards,


Jens Horstkotte
Munich, Germany
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#5
Thanks all - I'll respond to each in turn because of the different areas of interest.

Quote:I consider this to be very interesting theme too ...

Much for me to follow up there. Amelianus, if you are interested in this area, beware of how the word "legion" is used in some primary sources. I came across an article (which I have to "re-find" due to a recent computer disaster) entitled something like A British Legion in Gaul 530 AD. The author provides evidence to suggest this use of "legion" meant "army" or host.

Many thanks and I will try to locate that article and get a copy if it would be of interest to you or any others in the Romano-British field.

Cheers

Howard/SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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#6
Thanks Evan (hope I've got the name right)

Quote:There are multiple posts here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=112
which discuss the longetivity of the Roman Legions. Quinta Macedonia I believe survived into the 7th Century

V Macedonia is an interesting legion to try to pursue, especially as the search goes from Latin into Greek language and the name gets less formally used (e.g., "the Macedonians", Quintani, etc. As with Amelianus, your TWC posts give me lots to follow up.

Many thanks

Howard/SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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#7
Hi Jens

Quote:Among the legions last standing would also be the following...

I find the Quartoparthoi reference very compelling - the quirky mixture of Latin and the Greek plural ending (-oi) would seem to nail this firmly as the IVth.

With the "numerus Dacorum", might this possibly refer to a numerus per-se? I gather the word (numerus) seems to be used generally as "unit", especially by later writers, and this could certainly imply "legion" also.

Jens, I'm away from Brisbane at the moment (and so my files) but I think it was you who kindly sent me a CD on II Parthica gravestones last year? (For which I hope I thanked you). If so, then your interests might seem to be in the "Eastern Frontier" and I'd be interested in your thoughts on the movement (most often pulling-back I'd imagine) of frontier garrisons (including legions) toward Byzantium after, say, the 5th Century. I think there were some three legions in southern Turkey (a troublesome bandit area) in the 4th Century and it'd be interesting to know where they went to.

Many thanks

Howard/SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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#8
Further to the "British Legion" article I mentioned above.

The details are:

Wiseman, Howard M. 2011. A British legion stationed near Orleans c. 530? Evidence for Brittonis military activity in late antique Gaul in Vita sancti Dalmatii and other sources. Journal of the Australian Early Medieval Association. 7:9-31.

Unusually, this is freely available online at:
http://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/wiseman/D...-JAEMA.pdf

Cheers

Howard/SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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#9
" I find the Quartoparthoi reference very compelling - the quirky mixture of Latin and the Greek plural ending (-oi) would seem to nail this firmly as the IVth."


The blending of the Latin and Greek, would seem to come from the time period when the Byzantines transitioned from the use of Latin to Greek... So what approximate time period would you think this would be dated? I had not really given much thought to this topic before, but now that its been brought up, I find myself wanting to know more.
Caesar audieritis hoc
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#10
Quote:" The blending of the Latin and Greek, would seem to come from the time period when the Byzantines transitioned from the use of Latin to Greek...

Hi Tom

I might defer to others on this query as my own Latin/Greek studies are only one year advanced.

I assume that Theophylact (a source I have not yet read) is Theophylact Simocatta, writing about 630 AD (Wikipedia). The battle Jens referred to took place half-a-century earlier. One has to be careful in interpreting sources. However, if I saw a word looking something like "κυαρτοπαρθοι" or "χυαρτοπαρθοι" I'd find it hard not to think of Diocletian's legion. But I must admit I'd wonder why the author (i.e. Theophylact) didn't use some form of "τετρά". Indeed, I'll need to try and see how "Quartoparthoi" was written in Greek.

But, to return to your point from which I strayed. When and for how long did a pidgin/creole of Latin and Greek exist, If, indeed, it did?

No - I'll stop while the going's good. This is one for the philologists.

Cheers

Howard/SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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#11
Random rejoinder

Pursuing Jens' reference to the Quartoparthoi, I have found two tantalising sources.

The first is a page on the Associazione Culturale Bisanzio website, "Legioni bizantine, quando scomparvero?" (dated 18 Apr. 2009). Unfortunately, I don't read Italian and can only conjecture about the meaning. (Any Italian-literate members out there, feel free to translate for me Big Grin )

The first passage reads: "Tuttavia Teofilatto Simocatta attesta l'esistenza dei "Quartoparthoi" (ovvero la Legio IIII Parthica) negli anni 580, e ciò smentirebbe le affermazioni di Bury almeno in parte (secondo me erano quasi scomparse e rimanevano poche legioni come i "Quartoparthoi")." This suggests Bury as a source I need to follow there.

The second passage reads: "Su Wikipedia c'é scritto che la Legio V Macedonica andò probabilmente distrutta nella Battaglia dello Yarmuk del 636. E' vero? Io ho forti dubbi in proposito..."

I'm assuming for the moment what is being said is:

"Legio V Macedonica was destroyed in the Battle of Yarmuk - or is that true?"

Agsain, I must wish I could read Italian.

The second, and similar-sounding source is John Casey, writing in Birthday of the eagle (2002).

First Passage: "...legio V Macedonica, for example, survived from the republic to the reigh of Justinian and possibly later. (Casey 2002:175)" I'd have loved a citation right after "...to the reigh of Justinian" because I haven't been able to find an authoritative "latest date" for that particular legion. If anyone knows the source for Casey here, I'd be grateful.

Second Passage: "(I)t was the Emperor Heraclius ... who was to oversee the destruction of the last legions when at the battle of Yarmuk in 636 the Arabs overwhelmed the Roman Army...(Casey 2002:176)" Again, I'd have loved to have Casey's source for this and I'll just have to wait to get a print copy as the Google preview omits the list of sources.

References

Anon. 2009 Legioni bizantine, quando scomparvero? Impero Romano d'Oriente. Associazione Culturale Bisanzio. Accessed 4 Feb. 2012 at http://www.imperobizantino.it/node/2672

Casey, John. 2002 The legions in the later Roman Empire. In Richard J. Brewer (ed.) Birthday of the eagle: the second Augustan legion and the Roman military machine, pp. 165-178. Cardiff: National Museums & Galleries of Wales. Accessed 4 Feb. 2012 at http://books.google.com.au/books?id=LXF5...navlinks_s

Howard/SPC
Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)
"Life is still worthwhile if you just smile."
(Turner, Parsons, Chaplin)
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#12
I have found this older discussion with interesting informations:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...=entrypage
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#13
Other late antiquity unit names:a regiment called FELICES LAETORUM in 6th century Italy and foederati TIBERIANI(or Tiberiaci)and foederati OPTIMATOI(OPTIMATES-"the Best Men").These two foederati units were founded by emperor Tiberius II.Constantine around 575 and Optimati quickly became the elite of early "Byzantine"army.Both were probably Cavalry units.
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#14
Quote:The second, and similar-sounding source is John Casey, writing in Birthday of the eagle (2002).

First Passage: "...legio V Macedonica, for example, survived from the republic to the reigh of Justinian and possibly later. (Casey 2002:175)" I'd have loved a citation right after "...to the reigh of Justinian" because I haven't been able to find an authoritative "latest date" for that particular legion. If anyone knows the source for Casey here, I'd be grateful.

Second Passage: "(I)t was the Emperor Heraclius ... who was to oversee the destruction of the last legions when at the battle of Yarmuk in 636 the Arabs overwhelmed the Roman Army...(Casey 2002:176)" Again, I'd have loved to have Casey's source for this and I'll just have to wait to get a print copy as the Google preview omits the list of sources.

I think that you may be disappointed; Casey does not give a reference for either statement.

The presence of what is assumed to be legio V Macedonica in Egypt during the reign of Justinian is attested in P. Cair. Masp. 1 67002, the text of which can be found here:

http://papyri.info/ddbdp/p.cair.masp;1;67002/

The reference to Μακεδόνων is at 2.13. The papyrus is dated to AD567. Unfortunately, I have not found a translation but you may find something helpful in C. Zuckerman, 'Legio V Macedonica in Egypt', Tyche 3 (1988), 279-287, if you can get a copy.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#15
Quote:I have found this older discussion with interesting informations:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...=entrypage
Indeed. :wink:

May I add to that a reference to:
Cowan, Ross: The Last Legion, in: Military Illustrated vol. 200, January 2005, pp. 48-53.
It has an inscription from Baalbek from the Selucid year 947 (AD 635/6) referring to the 'Macedonians'.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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