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Re: Lorica segmentata from Caerleon
#31
Try this

http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/blog/201...f-Caerleon

and make sure you show all the pictures (there should be 7 in total)

Or see attached (captured form the blog):


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#32
Thank you Moi.

The pin at the back of the head that goes thro' the vine leaf plate still has its bellcap fitted, any residue that remains between the 3mm gap of the bellcap and rear of the plate is remnants of leather.
However it looks to me that the 3 pins at the back of this vine leaf plate did not have any bellcaps fitted but were simply bent over where they went thro' the leather.
Where it is mentioned that the gap is 3mm the thickness of the chamfron can be deduced from the bends of the other 3 pins, it may well be that these bends in the pins might show the chamfron to have been around 2mm and the lower edge of the bellcap being 3mm could indicate that there was also a backing leather.

It appears to be the same as the Vindolanda Chamfron where a backing leather is still held to the chamfron by a bellcap, I think I have learned a tremendous amount about chamfrons from having made the leather Vindolanda, Trimontium, and of course later metal ones such as all the Straubing metal pieces.
Brian Stobbs
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#33
With Chamfrons made of leather there would have been many studs and decoration pieces on them that went thro' the leather, and to protect the face of the horse there had to be a backing of sorts.
There would have been edge stitching on the chamfron holding the backing leather but also in various points a decoration piece would have had a bellcap or two that also held the backing.
These type of fasteners are smooth and round and of course they allow very gentle peening to hold them, the peened pin is hammered down into the countersink of the cap which also does not damage the skin of the horse.
Brian Stobbs
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#34
Quote:Thank you Moi.

However it looks to me that the 3 pins at the back of this vine leaf plate did not have any bellcaps fitted

This picture from the blog shows a bell cap/rove (are they the same thing???) left in the soil when the plaque was lifted.

Does that alter your (very interesting) analysis in anyway Brian?


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Reply
#35
Moi.

I don't think that the piece of a bellcap left in the soil does not change my opinion about the plate, for if you look closely at the reverse of the vine leaf there is no evidence of any peening at all on the plate pins in fact it can be clearly seen that they have been bent over.
This was where I made suggestion that the bends of these pins may well give us a chamfron leather of 2mm and the 3mm gap from the bellcap to the rear of the vine leaf indicates a backing leather on a leather horse chamfron.
I would even suggest that the other piece of the broken bellcap has come from maybe yet another piece of chamfron decoration or even another vine keaf.
What we find with these bellcaps is that when they come loose and fall off their studs, they leave a slightly swollen stud pin with a ring indent just below the spread out peening on the end of the stud and there is none of this on those plate pins they are just simply bent over indeed they are not even round in section but flat pins.
Brian Stobbs
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#36
Just a comment Brian, but the hole in that one cap looks slightly squared to me!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#37
Byron.

I have to say you are a bit of a Hawkeye well spotted, however this can be the case for other pins on some studs can indeed be square.
The Vindolanda had 3 different sizes of studs there were 3mm dia' 6mm dia' and 17mm dia, and at the time I was creating the Vindolanda chamfron Robin Birley's wife put a stud of around 17mm into my hand and that had a square shank to it.
The tiny heads used on the Vindolanda had stud pins on the rear that did look to be round ones, so might we think that this extra broken bellcap might have been fitted to such a larger type stud. Then having said all that the pins at the rear of that vine leaf are in fact flat shaped and most clearly bent over to hold the plate to leather, hence my explanation of how a pin looks when a bellcap falls off it.
Brian Stobbs
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#38
Looks very much like a bell cap to me! Thanks for the info!
Still to master bellcap production. :oops: Confusedmile:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#39
Byron.

If you look again very cloaely at the back of the vine leaf plate with its bellcap intact you will find that at the 1 o-clock position of the bellcap it is also ready to snap for it has a crack going right across it.
This is where I suggest the broken bellcap is not from this plate at all.
Brian Stobbs
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#40
Byron.
I think you are going to have to stop off some time on one of your trips and I can pass it all on to you, it's all to do with the skill of how to use a hammer.
Brian Stobbs
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#41
Well, I'm popping up to Newcastle next week! Are you about then?
Thanks for the offer!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#42
Byron.

I shall see if I have a hammer for you and all going well you will leave as a craftsman.
Brian Stobbs
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#43
Wow! What a spectacularly kind offer, Brian. I am almost envious.

What a great place this forum can be!
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Reply
#44
Moi.

This forum is indeed a great place but at times it can become frustrating just like life itself, I can't remember how far back but there was a very heavy discussion regarding bellcaps.
In fact I'm surprised no one has taken it up again where I keep refering to them with this plate, some time ago I instructed Jurjen on how to make them and he has done wonderfull work with them since. They are a very special fixing device used in Roman times with a definate purpose in mind where delicate decoration had to be fitted without causing any damage to it.
This is the information and skill I would like to pass on also to Byron.
Brian Stobbs
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#45
I would like to mention that the vine leaf plate with its little face looks to be the one that would have been fitted to the right ear piece of a leather chamfron.
This is due to its configuration where the leaf curve swings from bottom right to its point at top left, indeed for the want of a better word in the fashion a number 6.
Brian Stobbs
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