lorica segmentata Question

[Matthius_Titus]

Well like they say the only stupid question is the question not asked so here i go. What kind of padding/protection do you wear under the lorica segmentata? After wearing it for awhile it does tend to get a little uncomfortable. i'm doing Early Imperial Roman (25 BC -197 AD)impression so what would be the proper protection to wear? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Gaius Colletti]

It's called a "subarmalis" and can be made out of fabric ranging from an old tunic to a padded linen shirt to a leather garment like item. I still have to make a proper one, and currently just use an old tunic. I feel that padding the shoulders is almost necessary for long uses, though padding the rest is optional (unless you are using hamata or squamata).

Subarmalis primary sources are relatively limited, I do not know of any specific designs myself, but I understand there is evidence of one that ties together on the side

[Matthius_Titus]

Is there any makers out there that supply these.

[mcbishop]

Subarmalis primary sources are relatively limited, I do not know of any specific designs myself, but I understand there is evidence of one that ties together on the side

Sadly there is no direct evidence for the arming doublet (which might have been called the subarmalis or subarmale) fastening at the front, sides, or back, since none have survived. So far as I can tell, the various reconstructions are all at the whim of the craftsmen with more-or-less convincing arguments as to where it should indeed fasten! Best not to use a zip, though...

Mike Bishop

[66kbm]

Hi Matthew
If you are looking for a basic "bodywarmer" type subarmalis then The Padded Armour Company can knock you one up to your own specs for about £100 or there is also Ancient Empire Reproductions who have a similar offering for around 150 Euros.
Hope that helps
Kevin

[Gaius Colletti]

Thank you for clarifying that Dr. Bishop, someone led me one to believe that there was direct evidence for a subarmalis

[Magnus]

Mr. Fox, check your private messages.

[PhilusEstilius]

I have never believed the idea at all about a subarmalis under a segmentata just a bit of modern re-enactment fantasy.

[mcbishop]

I have never believed the idea at all about a subarmalis under a segmentata just a bit of modern re-enactment fantasy.

Sadly the re-enactors are blameless: there's another twit to blame.

No body armour works without a padded undergarment; never has, never will ;-)

Mike Bishop

[mcbishop]

there's another twit to blame.

And that twit has just made it available online here.

Mike Bishop

[Matthius_Titus]

being a civil war reenactor for 20 years new items always pop up because of new finds or new research. Doing this impression is difficult because are doing a period that was 2,000 years ago or better. I find it hard to believe that soldiers did not wear anything under armor. It would be usless against a blow to the shoulders because there would be nothing to absorb the shock so there would be broken bones. So is it proper not to use anything? I want to be as authentic as possible but i also want to be able to go to work on monday instead of nursing sore shoulders. So what i'm gathering it's Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Does anyone on here wear one? if so who and what are you using?

[mcbishop]

I find it hard to believe that soldiers did not wear anything under armor. It would be usless against a blow to the shoulders because there would be nothing to absorb the shock so there would be broken bones.

Quite. The point of the article mentioned above is that the lorica segmentata will not sit correctly unless there is padding under the shoulders and the whole design of those overlapping laminated shoulder plates is to absorb and dissipate energy from blows. David Sim has got hold of a genuine trauma surgeon (keeps him in a cellar I believe) specifically to analyse what happens with padded/unpadded armour using the UK Defence Academy's facilities (high speed cameras, weighted projectiles with sensitive instruments etc etc) and has conducted experiments on all the main forms of armour. Trust me, you don't want to be under a blow without padding; it really would spoil your weekend (and your shoulder).

So the long and the short of it is that you need a padded garment that enables the horizontal strap on the segmentata breastplates to actually sit horizontally; if they didn't, we would see the stress in the archaeological finds and it simply isn't there.

Trust your instincts. All body armour needed padding.

Mike Bishop

[Gaius Colletti]

I think you misunderstood him, Matt. Dr. Bishop was promoting the use of a subarmalis/thoracomachus. The "twit" he was refering to was himself (jokingly).

In my limited experience, I wore my full kit (minus shield and pilum)for an event at work and afterwards for a good 7 hours or so. Towards the end, my shoulders were definitely sore, it wasn't the end of the world or anything, I do consider myself a fit individual but I think it could have been avoided with proper padding

EDIT: He already beat me to it

[Gaius Colletti]

Here is what I believe Dr. Bishop is trying to get at of what a segmentata will look like without some sort of proper support under the shoulders. Sorry about the quality the picture was taken from an old book by Michael Simkins

[Matthius_Titus]

I knew what Dr. Bishop was saying. I'm referring to those who say nothing was used.I don't see the roman army allowing their men to be in any discomfort on the march or in battle more so risking unnecessary injury due to the armor they wear.