Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Shields of the Athenian Marines?
#1
I've been studying up on the Battle of Salamis, and I was wondering about those Marines who would board one trireme from another - what shield would they carry? Surely not an aspis, which requires so many other guys with aspides nearby?

If I'm not wrong, then what would it be? And can you show me one?
Darren
Reply
#2
I have never had a problem with the notion of an aspis carrying marine. It is highly suited to one on one combat and can be manouvered with reasonable ease. I have never heard of another type of shield either for Hellenes (apart from peltas in a peltast context). Stephanos (as I recall) ascribes the dolphin motifs to marine hoplites as wellso this might be supportive of a marine carrying aspis while fighting ship to ship.??
regards
richard
Reply
#3
Athenian marines in the age of Thucydides were hoplites and archers, and to a 5th century Greek a hoplite was someone with an aspis, so I would want evidence before believing that marines carried a spare shield each. That said, we don't know a great deal about shipboard combat or the equipment of pre-Roman marines.

There is an argument that Iphicrates' peltast kit was influenced by the equipment of ἐπιβάται, but that is much later.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#4
Okay, gentlemen. It was just a question. I was just under then impression - from my inexpert education so relax, OK - that the main virtue of the aspis was all the other aspides next to you.

That, and the 14 pounds of it, and the situation in which you're using a weapon system designed for open field combat on a pitching, flat, narrow, unrailed deck, makes me think that perhaps - just perhaps! - the shield of choice might not be the one that is designed to protect the guy to your left.
Darren
Reply
#5
Our Association is currently studying "fighting on board" and I wrote an article about the fighting on the "decks of death" (hope to publish in English too)

Lets start with the facts.

A hoplite duel took place between Sophanes and Eyrhvates on Aegina in early 5th century BC.(Herodotus 9.75) So duels were possible

Weapons-master Emmanuele Argento and many of his students tried elaborete fencing moves while carrying a 15 pound hoplite shield. So yes the shield could be used in single combat.

You cannot outmanouvre an opponent who carries a hoplite shield on a trireme half-deck by using the "lion step" fencing move. You will either end up in the water or in between the oarsmen lines. If you still try and he pushes hard and makes contact you are on the planks and definitely don't want that!

Usually the Marine complement was led by the immediete family of the trieratch (aristocratic filthy rich guys who could afford good armor and sword training)

Plus - Most scholars are not shipbuilders don't have sailing experience.
The "Lenorman plaque" has b not been through fashmatoscopy. The colours might show what the sculptor ommited - like rails??!!!
Reply
#6
I am curious as to why many of you seem to think that here was a haphazard melee during shipboard combat. I find it more likely that men always fought in groups when possible, and the limitations on width imposed by the galley's beam make outflanking even a small wall of shields impossible. A mass of such shields would be of obvious value in repelling the boarding actions of the enemy. I think there are references to "shield-walls" on Viking ships in the Sagas, but someone will know better than I.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
#7
I did not think that any had stated that shield walls were not used
In my imagination individual marines likely crossed from ship to ship on their own legs and that a degree of individual combat must take place Big Grin
Richard
Reply
#8
Vikning naval fight was the tactic of the "floating fortress" (i.e tie the ships together ans defend the floating palisade - Svoedr 1000 AD)

Mediterranean naval fight amongst warships depended on the use of the ram.
An experienced navigator could, with a good hit, render the majority of the enemy crew at the mercy of the boarding marines. If you are rammed you are done!

In theory a shield wall could be formed st the length of either ship side but the enemy must have been pretty useless if he had your flank exposed and could not ram you!

The effect of ramming is very similar to a frag grenade in a foxhole!
(Details in my article) :mrgreen: shameless self-advertising :mrgreen:

Kind regards
Reply
#9
Quote:In my imagination individual marines likely crossed from ship to ship on their own legs and that a degree of individual combat must take place

Unlikely, because the defending marines are under no such constraint and would surely meet any attempt to cross with a group. So going back to the original question, the only time an aspis might be less than optimal was the moment one was crossing over (if the contact between ships was so narrow that only one hoplite could cross). For the rest of the battle, an aspis would be perfect, as it would be for the marines upon landing.

As Stephanos points out, this type of battle on shipboard was a minor point in the naval warfare of the Greeks. Perhaps as interesting is when hoplites attempted to force anamphibious landing. Things did not go so well for Brasidas in this regard, for example.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
#10
Landing in face of enemy opposition is dangerous even today.
The legend of Protesilaus proves that ancient Greeks recognized the hazards of the operation.

Kind regards
Reply
#11
To blend in the always-to-be-considered greek artwork, even though i am not aware of a single trireme represented, we have many biremes of the late 6th century, and most of them have hoplites with their usual big shields. I am not even sure if i have ever seen a peltast on board.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
#12
A guy with a javelin or harpoon(!!!)- Archaeological Museum of Lamia.
Bronze Age peltast. Think I have posted that in another thread.

Herodotus talk of peltasts of a Samothrakian ship who resisted and then turned the tables on Athenian boarding action.

Pirate ships are better of with light troops as they double as rowers.

Kind regards
Reply
#13
Let's not forget the imfamus dorudrepanon!
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
#14
The seals from the Poniatovky collection show a lightly armed guy using this weapon.

Kind regards
Reply


Forum Jump: