Hoplite Dagger?

[Marcus Ginintonicus]

Hello all,

I'm fairly new to hoplite studies, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. In several sources I had heard or seen reference to "hoplite sword and dagger." Of course there are thousands of depictions of hoplites wearing swords, but I cannot bring to mind one in which the hoplite is wearing both a xiphos or kopis and a dagger.

Can someone shed some light on this? If there are depictions, can someone show me one? Or if it existed, at least tell me where and how the dagger would have been worn? I can only imagine behind the right hip, but I also haven't seen any hoplite belts from which to suspend it.

Thanks.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hello Darren
What they must mean is that the hoplite used eithe a sword or a dagger. It's almost certain that when they say dagger they mean the supposed laconian short sword that became more and more popular during the 5th and 4th century.
However, the existance of such a sword is dubious. We see very short swords in many parts of greece since 9th century bc and in the typical hoplite style already since the 6th century bc. That said, the laconians may have preffered this shorter style of the xiphos, but calling it a "laconian shord" as we do nowadays goes a bit too far. And yet, there are a couple of depictions in Attic gave stelae of the early 4th century or the late 5th that show what presumambly is a laconian being killed by an Athenian cavalryman, and the slain infantriman in a pilos hat holds a tiny sword/dagger.

Recently i learned that in a 6th-5th century cemetery in Macedonian they have found many swords that had a knife on the scabbard (same practise as in some iberian falkatas). This however is a utility knife most probably, and i don't know if it would have a double edge or it would be curved like most knives of the time.

Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Hello Darren.

There are daggers exibited in Museums and yew they were in use by Greeks.
No known representation of a Greek warrior wearing them both exists.

As for what was the "Laconia Sword", please see here:

http://stefanosskarmintzos.wordpress.com...ian-sword/

[Marcus Ginintonicus]

Thank you both. That is about what I'd thought - no pair of hilted blades. I have seen the falcata with the by-knife; didn't know about a xiphos with one.

Since I've got you here, I asked this question in another forum and no one answered: I recall seeing one representation of a belt around either a musculata or a linothorax, way up high, just under the pectorals. There were some loops depending from it, like holiday bunting, and I got the impression that the whole thing was decoration, possibly a rank insignia. Or maybe just Victorian frou-frou. I can't recall where I saw it so I can't check it out.

Does anyone here recall such a ribbon or a belt? If it actually existed in period, can you show me a representation of a hoplite wearing one? And what is it, if not a hallucination?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I have some things in mind, one of them early 5th century vase, but could you post the on eyou're talking about here?

In the 4th century and later ribbons around the cuirass were a sighn of high rank. Alexander wears one in the famous Alexander mosaic, and there are plenty of other sculptures of cuirassed men with a ribbon. After all the habbit went on in roman times.
The problem with the early 5th century vase is that it shows a young man, dressing for battle, with no special armour only a plain tube and yoke, no servants or anything note worthy.
However, i have come to understand that these ribbons, the same ones that were used around the forehead or even around tomb stones had some religious significance. Some times they are shown carried in baskets together with other offerings for the dead. So, we could speculate that the ribbons and even the knots used to tie them had a religious significance by themselves, and with time they were used by high rank officers or strategoi.
Khaire
Giannis

[Marcus Ginintonicus]

Sorry, as I said above: "I can't recall where I saw it so I can't check it out." So I'm hoping that if it exists someone here has seen it, knows what it is, and it would be very helpful if I could see it, too.