Tombstones

[mcbishop]

It could be worse, we might be discussing WW1 aircraft colour schemes using black and white photos and trying to determine the original colour by the various shades of grey!

Or the appearance of yellow on orthochromatic film... which makes me wonder how we know that the colours Lindenschmit saw were the same as our inattentive painter thought he applied? There is presumably a vast field of chemical study on the oxidisation of mineral- and vegetable-based paints on stone. ;-)

Then again it is more fun to discuss WW1 aircraft! :-D

But equally fraught.

Mike Bishop

[Graham Sumner]

Yes, I believe it has been determined that yellow can appear black, in black and white photos and not as one might expect a lighter shade of grey. So many an ace thought to be flying a sinister all black aircraft was in actual fact flying a bright banana yellow one!

Some of the colours on an original tombstone in Augsburg that Christian has mentioned previously appears to show flesh coloured legs with a very shiny yellow torso, which it is tempting to suggest is bronze armour but whether scale or mail is harder to determine.

The bands around the legs of a couple of early third century tombstones can be interpreted in a variety of ways without the aid of the original colour. Bracae, leg wrappings, undertunic or all three, anyone's guess really.

Graham.

[mcbishop]

No colour, but this little chunk from Bingen (now in Mainz) has two types of belt plates.



Mike Bishop

[Vindex]

I know this example is principally showing the belts (and the detail is certainly worth checking out the close ups!) - but what do you think is happening with the drape of the tunic?

There appears to be something knotted around the neck which seems to go under (I am tempted to say tucked into) the smoothed area, and then the 'material' of the tunic is held up in some way.

Not essential to my happiness to know...just curious :wink:

[mcbishop]

There appears to be something knotted around the neck which seems to go under (I am tempted to say tucked into) the smoothed area, and then the 'material' of the tunic is held up in some way.

Not essential to my happiness to know...just curious :wink:

I had assumed it was the scarf showing above the neck opening of the cape, similar to what is depicted on Largennius (the scarf there sitting between the cape and tunic beneath, its ends overlapping, as the Mainz fragment seems to show):



There is a barely visible cummerbund, similar to that shown on the other Bingen/Bingerbrück tombstones like Annaius Daverzus, but I don't think I would see it as a tunic held up with a tie in a sort of Just William fashion ;-)

Mike Bishop

[Vindex]

There is a barely visible cummerbund, similar to that shown on the other Bingen/Bingerbrück tombstones like Annaius Daverzus, but I don't think I would see it as a tunic held up with a tie in a sort of Just William fashion ;-)

Mike Bishop

Got the cummerbund (and Terry Scott's voice echoing in my head for some reason!)...so the tunic is folding over that, yes?

[mcbishop]

Got the cummerbund (and Terry Scott's voice echoing in my head for some reason!)...so the tunic is folding over that, yes?

Ah, :roll: the pre-Flavian tunic (*sigh*). It certainly seems to have been held in place with the cummerbund, over which were worn the belts, and behind which was tucked in a small rectangular thingy which Dietwulf Baatz thought was writing tablets (except it doesn't look like writing tablets elsewhere on tombstones). I still have a sneaking suspicion that the PFT was not just a T-bag-with-holes like its later cousin, but the precise form eludes us. It has been an almost-paper of mine for years...

Mike Bishop

[Vindex]

:oops: Sorry for the reminder.

but

Annaius Daverzus' tunic appears to be hanging as one would expect (and a lovely drape it is too, beautifully executed)

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/index2.php?..._large.jpg

However, this Mainz example appears to be draped like a pair of curtains ie two "ends" meeting; and if not, then sorry, suspended in the middle by something - possibly...maybe.

Perhaps the almost-paper is worth writing(please?)

[mcbishop]

Annaius Daverzus' tunic appears to be hanging as one would expect (and a lovely drape it is too, beautifully executed)

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/index2.php?..._large.jpg

However, this Mainz example appears to be draped like a pair of curtains ie two "ends" meeting; and if not, then sorry, suspended in the middle by something - possibly...maybe.

I think the key detail is that the sides are hitched up (rather than the front pulled down) and that the front part usually overlaps the rear at the sides, that is why you get the inverted V shape on the side of the thigh, the curving hem effect and the exaggerated folds (which are indeed beautifully depicted on Annaius' stone but more or less stylised on most others) on the front.

The cummerbund may have been instrumental in achieving this effect. Many people here will want to know 'why?' but that is immaterial (frightful pun); the 'how' concerns me ;-)

Perhaps the almost-paper is worth writing(please?)

Maybe for JRMES 17 hock:

Mike Bishop

[Graham Sumner]

I would suggest that the wool material used for these tunics is a lot finer than that used by many re-enactors. Nevertheless a number of RAT members like Jim Bowers and Crispus did make some creditable attempts at recreating the style a few years ago.

It is difficult to determine how widespread the use of this draped style of tunic was, as we do not have another corpus of tombstones comparable with those from the Rhineland to make comparisons. A few contemporary tombstones exist from North Africa but they do not show this style at all, although that could be down to the fact that the sculptors do not appear to have been as competent as those in Germany.

I have wondered if the draped style fashion originated in the east and may have followed units that were transferred to Europe, such as the eastern archers Hyperanor and Pantera shown on the Rhineland sculptures. Any thoughts on that Mike?

I do not know if the tunic itself is in any way different from the rectangular Roman tunic (like a big tea bag with slits at the side for the arms) which we have complete examples of from the Hadrianic period. Certainly they would give you enough material to play with, unlike the fairly tight fitting 'T' shaped design favoured by a lot of Re-enactors. As Mike has suggested I also believe that the so called cummerbund has something to do with how the effect is achieved or at least held in place.

Ironically I have seen a lot of re-enactors wearing cummerbunds (fascia ventralis) with undraped tunics rather than draped ones although there does not seem to be any evidence for this practice. However a Vindolanda tablet mentions a ventralem which seems to suggest that they existed into Flavian times although sadly we lack the sculptural evidence from that period.


Perhaps the almost-paper is worth writing(please?)

Maybe for JRMES 17

Email sent Mike

Graham.

[D B Campbell]

However, this Mainz example appears to be draped like a pair of curtains ie two "ends" meeting; and if not, then sorry, suspended in the middle by something - possibly...maybe.

Sometimes (well, actually, most of the time) my brain works in a peculiar way. This time, I got the impression that you pair might be at cross-purposes?
[attachment=2759]Mainz_tunic.jpg[/attachment]
Of course, I might be completely wrong. (Wouldn't be the first time; won't be the last.)

[mcbishop]

I got the impression that you pair might be at cross-purposes?

[snip]

Of course, I might be completely wrong. (Wouldn't be the first time; won't be the last.)

I was up 'till some ridiculous hour playing tax return roulette so cut me some slack, kid ;-)

So we are all happy with the drapes and the problem is the curtains? Easy. It's the paenula thrown over both shoulders to reveal the sidearms. What is slightly disconcerting here is that it at first glance looks like two paenulae, one on top of the other, but I think it's just supposed to be one. Annaius is no help here as he is wearing a sagum, but Largennius has his paenula arranged in a similar way. Is that it Moi?

Mike Bishop

[mcbishop]

I have wondered if the draped style fashion originated in the east and may have followed units that were transferred to Europe, such as the eastern archers Hyperanor and Pantera shown on the Rhineland sculptures. Any thoughts on that Mike?

I don't think so as there are quite a few Balkan chaps wearing it too (like Licaius at Wiesbaden). Anyway, we all know they wore ankle-length nightdresses and pointy helmets; must be true, it's on TC :-D

Ironically I have seen a lot of re-enactors wearing cummerbunds (fascia ventralis) with undraped tunics rather than draped ones although there does not seem to be any evidence for this practice. However a Vindolanda tablet mentions a ventralem which seems to suggest that they existed into Flavian times although sadly we lack the sculptural evidence from that period.

Problem is that Ubl's original association of his 'fascia ventralis' with the cummerbund is at best tenuous and 'ventralem' could well mean any one of a dozen things, given the poverty of vocabulary in Latin. It's the same problem as the 'subarmalis' in the Carlisle writing tablet; Roger Tomlin thinks it's a type of javelin, I think it's the you-know-what, but there is nothing in the text to say either of us is right or wrong. That's the slithiness of word-juggling for you ;-)

Mike Bishop

[Graham Sumner]

Graham Sumner wrote:
I have wondered if the draped style fashion originated in the east and may have followed units that were transferred to Europe, such as the eastern archers Hyperanor and Pantera shown on the Rhineland sculptures. Any thoughts on that Mike?

I don't think so as there are quite a few Balkan chaps wearing it too (like Licaius at Wiesbaden). Anyway, we all know they wore ankle-length nightdresses and pointy helmets; must be true, it's on TC


I was thinking more in terms of the fashion being introduced into the Rhineland region by eastern troops and then spreading to other units serving locally, such as the chap you mention and then even into the local Legions. The only other severe style of sculptured drapery I am familiar with is on Palmyrene sculpture. Jon Coulston thinks the long nightdress chaps on TC are Sarmations. In a flight of fantasy I wondered again more on sculptural grounds that they were Indians, recruited not from North America or even India but Egypt as there appears to have been large Indian communities scattered along the coast of Egypt. It would fit in with Trajan's desire to get to India but precious little else I have to admit.

What is slightly disconcerting here is that it at first glance looks like two paenulae, one on top of the other, but I think it's just supposed to be one.

Nevertheless the Vindolanda tablets do indeed mention an under paenula. Maybe your observation is not too far off the mark Mike!

It's the same problem as the 'subarmalis' in the Carlisle writing tablet; Roger Tomlin thinks it's a type of javelin, I think it's the you-know-what, but there is nothing in the text to say either of us is right or wrong. That's the slithiness of word-juggling for you

M. Speidel strongly agrees with you as do I.

Graham.

[Vindex]

Duncan - thank you, yes they were my curtains!

Being of a literal sort of brain I started reading Mike's response as it was the first one ...and read it several times as I was certainly confused. Then I found the very helpful diagram. I think we were indeed at cross purposes; perhaps I should have indicated too rather than try to explain something about which I know very little (in such exalted company).

And yes, Mike, I believe the Largennius image helps to explain what the "curtains" are.

And I would have to agree with Graham too that to achieve such wonderful draping the wool would have to be very finely woven.

Thank you for the discussion and for the explanations - seems I lied and it did become more essential than I thought !!

Can we discuss the belts now please??? :mrgreen: