Tombstones

[D B Campbell]

And here's me thinking none of you would see the pilum tip ...

What pilum tip? :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

So, it is his cloak.... :mrgreen:

[mcbishop]

What pilum tip? :wink:

You – outside now. No haggis for you, tonight!

Mike Bishop

[PhilusEstilius]

I saw the spear straight away sir!! but can we realy say Pilum for could it not be a Hasta with a longish point can't see any wood block near his hand.
I also notice that you say cape which I would also say for it simply covers his Hamata from the rain ( waxed goat skin maybe )

[mcbishop]

Here's one for arming doublet (aketon, subarmalis, thoracomachus etc etc) fans to debate. It is published in Robinson (Pl.244) but there is a bit more detail to drool over for the sword and dagger. I particularly like the cheeky upside-down brooch (archaeological illustrators will appreciate the ironies there). To aid the debate, I have included a colour key to explain alternative interpretations.



Also added a colour-key for Firmus (Robinson Pl.243) too:



Mike Bishop

[StephenCurtin]

Hmmm interesting piece Mike, looking forward to the debate on this one.

[mcbishop]

Hmmm interesting piece Mike, looking forward to the debate on this one.

I think we were the only ones :roll:

Mike Bishop

[StephenCurtin]

Well Mike, I would say that the green layer is a tunica, as the lines on it seem identical to the folds on his sagum. As the red layer is untextured, I would say that it's probably a hamata, because AFAIK Roman sculpturs often depict mail in this fashion. That leaves the blue layer, now the wavie lines at the bottom seem, to me, to indicate some form of fringe. If the lines continued all the way up the garment then I would say that it was mail, but there definately seems to be a division between the wavie lines and the area left plain, so I'd say that it's very possibly a subarmalis.

[Nathan Ross]

I have included a colour key to explain alternative interpretations.

At first glance I thought you'd uncovered evidence of the infamous lorica roseata... which would really set cat amongst pigeons...

But (serious face) it looks like the blue bit is a definite fringe - hard to say whether it's part of a subarmalis-y thing, or an edging to the pink bit (which could be hock: some sort of fabric armour?)

[mcbishop]

At first glance I thought you'd uncovered evidence of the infamous lorica roseata... which would really set cat amongst pigeons...

A rose red lorica, half as old as its grime...?

But (serious face) it looks like the blue bit is a definite fringe - hard to say whether it's part of a subarmalis-y thing, or an edging to the pink bit (which could be hock: some sort of fabric armour?)

Indeed, and the identification of whatever it is with the ephemeral subarmalis is no more certain than the cummberbund (as depicted on tombstones like Annaius') with the so-called fascia ventralis. Trouble is a lot of people don't like it if you hedge these things round with too many perhapses and maybes; doesn't stop me doing it, of course ;-)

Mike Bishop

[jkaler48]

Where would one get a tombstone in the Military Roman fashion for one's self (yes I intend to erect it myself way premortum (I hope)? And who would be a good person to help write the inscription?

[jvrjenivs]

Where would one get a tombstone in the Military Roman fashion for one's self (yes I intend to erect it myself way premortum (I hope)? And who would be a good person to help write the inscription?

Just find a local stone-work artist, I would say.

If you like to get a plaster copy/cast there are some company's making them as well.

[Graham Sumner]

Mike Bishop wrote:Here's one for arming doublet (aketon, subarmalis, thoracomachus etc etc) fans to debate. It is published in Robinson (Pl.244) but there is a bit more detail to drool over for the sword and dagger. I particularly like the cheeky upside-down brooch (archaeological illustrators will appreciate the ironies there). To aid the debate, I have included a colour key to explain alternative interpretations.


To further confuse things is the tombstone of the cavalryman Silius! (a very apt name considering) It shows his servant? wearing something similar to this but had some colour surviving on the tombstone. The main smooth garment was green and the zigzag fringe was red, there appeared to be little or nothing of a tunic visible. Perhaps given the cavalry context this is a subarmalis as described in the Carlisle writing tablet. Personally I think the subarmalis was more padded like in appearance and there are some examples in sculpture which I will post in a new thread for further discussion.

Otherwise I would have said that in Mike's key, green was the tunic, blue was the armour, possibly with subarmalis underneath and that red was the Robinson cover, perhaps in leather.

Graham.

[mcbishop]

To further confuse things is the tombstone of the cavalryman Silius! (a very apt name considering) It shows his servant? wearing something similar to this but had some colour surviving on the tombstone.

The painted record being done by Ludwig Lindenschmit's father, I found out recently. Of course, that supposes the guy originally painting the tombstone knew what he was doing (not quite as obvious an assumption as one might think): layers of separation of interpretation from observation etc.

Otherwise I would have said that in Mike's key, green was the tunic, blue was the armour, possibly with subarmalis underneath and that red was the Robinson cover, perhaps in leather.

As I suspected. Interpretation is in the eye of the beholder ;-)

Mike Bishop

[Graham Sumner]

Mike Bishop Wrote:

Of course, that supposes the guy originally painting the tombstone knew what he was doing (not quite as obvious an assumption as one might think):

Funnily enough I had the same thought myself. Even if the sculptor knew what he was doing, the painter might have been in his green and red period! :-D

As I suspected. Interpretation is in the eye of the beholder

It could be worse, we might be discussing WW1 aircraft colour schemes using black and white photos and trying to determine the original colour by the various shades of grey!

Then again it is more fun to discuss WW1 aircraft! :-D

Graham.