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Paullus · 12-08-2004, 02:45 AM

Just watched a show featured on Discovery Channel's Egypt Week that dealt with a theory about Cleopatra's murder at the hands of Octavian. The basic run of the thing was that Octavian had captured Cleopatra and had her murdered along with her son via Caesar in order to cement his claim to the eventual emperorship of Rome. Interesting premise and leads to some good debate. 
 
But the big thing was a pair of Augustan - I repeat Augustan legionnaires complete with Coolus and hamata, albeit with straight edged scutum and lancea. At least they were Imperial Gallic/segmentata Romans! Not bad but the best representation of Romans of the era yet. Makes me wonder if the docu guys are catching on Not likely but at least there was an effort. 
 
Did anyone else see this? It was interesting and the theoretical plot was certainly smart enough to have come from Octavian.

Theodosius the Great · 12-08-2004, 10:55 AM

Ave, 
 
I saw it too and did notice the legionaries . 
 
I thought the conclusion was a moot point. So what if Octavian killed Cleopatra ? She would've been killed anyway had Octavian paraded her in a triumph since prisoners were normally killed when they reached the end of it. I know we never see that part of the triumph shown in Hollywood movies. Very convienient . 
 
Anyway, he probably had or would've driven her to suicide which is tantamount to murder. It doesn't matter. She was a spent force so it isn't as if her murder or suicide would've changed history. So who cares ? 
 
I saw a much more interesting documentary (on the same channel) about an Italian detective's theory on Julius Caesar commiting suicide. He theorized that he deliberately left himself vulnerable to assasination. 
 
-Theo

Paullus · 12-08-2004, 04:33 PM

That is true, she was definately a dead duck either way. It is unusual why he would hold kill her in Alexandria though. If anything that might get the Egyptians cholor-up. Even though Cleopatra was Hellenic she had to be better than the Romans so you'd think they'd try something....maybe, who knows. In my mind wouldn't it be better for Octavian to simply parade her in the triumph anyway? That would only make him more popular in the eyes of the Romans. Its not like she made friends of every Roman, plus most of the boys in Rome would be firmly in Octavian's pocket. And as you said Theodosius, she had no army, no wealth, no fleet to offer anyone.

Theodosius the Great · 12-08-2004, 11:14 PM

Quote:<hr>wouldn't it be better for Octavian to simply parade her in the triumph anyway? That would only make him more popular in the eyes of the Romans<hr> 
 
I would think so too. 
 
For that reason, I think she committed suicide. I know they ruled out the cobra as the means of her suicide, but she had access to products from as far away as China. They never found a snake in her chamber, so who knows what she used. 
 
And anyway, we know Octavian was a murderer. He killed Caesarion, so I wouldn't put it passed him. I just doubt that he did it, because I don't see the advantage of doing it like that. 
 
The program kept making a big deal of Plutarch's admission of not knowing exactly how she died. Well, does any historian know anything ? He wrote several decades after her death and he was able to record only hearsay. Every historian has gaps in his knowledge of the past. 
 
-Theo

12-10-2004, 09:26 AM

I think Cleopatra was very wealthy, extremely wealthy. Octavianus knew what he was doing when he put Egypt under his personal control. 
 
But about that other docu about Caesar, that's worth talking about. The 'evidence' can of course be seen like you want, but when you accept the possibility his epilepsy was progressing rapidly and he knew he was going to die anyhow, it could be believable he set up his own dead. 
But then again there where so much variables to take into the account of which he didn't posses control. How could he be sure the outcome would put Octavianus in his seat. At that time Octavianus was a nobody who still had to prove everything. 
 
Any thoughts? 
 
Jurgen/Quintilianus

12-14-2004, 02:15 AM

I did watch that documentary on JC's murder. It was not strong - do you remember the bit where it suggested he didn't stand to honour the senators? The programme suggested this could be because his epilepsy had rendered his bowels unstable. Well.... yes, I suppose that it technically possible, but it's far more likely he was showing his dislike of the talking shop that the senate had become. 
 
The theory that he knew his death was coming was strongest when it dealt with the multiple warnings about the Ides of March. This is a matter of opinion, but I believe those to be later additions to the text - to show the involvement of great forces in his assassination. He is also said to have stated a preference for a warrior's death rather than one by disease - but I doubt it was just a few days before they killed him, as some suggest. 
 
I seem to remember that Claudius was warned by his mother not to rewrite the JC years as they had already been rewritten so many times? 
 
For me, two points are inescapable. JC was planning a huge campaign against the Parthians. It was this plan that brought the assassination forward before JC disappeared into the field. This is not the sort of thing you do before cheerfully walking in to a room full of assassins. 
 
Eclipsing that, however, is the fact that he had an infant son at last, inheritor of the thrones of Egypt and Rome - literally the son of a goddess. JC had waited all his life for an heir and it is a bit weak to suggest he would have abandoned the boy to the mercy of Octavian because his epilepsy was troubling him. 
 
Octavian was still his official heir! JC hadn't even rewritten his will at the time of his death. 
 
The suicide idea made interesting watching and there are some peculiar aspects to those final days - dismissing his guards, for example. I don't think it holds water overall. 
 
 
Conn

12-18-2004, 01:33 AM

Although i didnt see the cleo documentary, i did have the somewhat dubious privelige of being in it! (the clean shaven legionary in mail with pteyrges) 
 
Unfortunately i was only told about it the day before! this led to a prolonged scrabble in the back of our (later first century) group's van in pitch darkness, and rapidly cramming as much roughly appropriate kit into the back of a car as possible (and then some!) set off for the studio. Arriving complete with the (very) basic elements for two almost passable augustan legionaries kits (coolus/mail combo), we were mistaken by the film crew for crusaders .... who were expecting the generic segmees. 
 
so much for progress!!, i didnt feel so bad about any less obvious anachronisms after that comment! (the shields were old ones belonging to our group which had been lying in someones back garden for 5 years!)

Nathan Ross · 12-18-2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:<hr>The suicide idea made interesting watching and there are some peculiar aspects to those final days... I don't think it holds water overall.<hr> 
 
Me neither. I think the fellow who came up with the 'Caesar suicide' idea was an Italian detective - the idea being connected to certain Mafia practices. Unfortunately, with all the similarities between the Mafiosi and the late Republican political scene, this one goes too far. 
 
Basically, the assassination plot of Brutus and co didn't go to plan. The idea was that, after the killing, they would make a speech to the senate declaring their act to be tyrannicide (a semi-legal form of killing) - if the senate agreed, they would not only be immune from punishment, but also officially commended for their patriotic act. However, that wasn't all... 
 
Julius Caesar was, I think it's safe to say, a fantastically vain person even by Roman terms - his dignity, honour and the acclaim of posterity meant a lot to him. If he'd been officially declared a tyrant after his death (which a decree of tyrannicide would have effected), all this would be as nothing - his statues would have been destroyed, his political decrees annulled. Not only that, his body would have been ritually dishonoured - stripped and dragged through the streets with a meathook through the jaw, before being thrown in the river. This is what the conspiritors had planned for him. Caesar, as a Roman, would have known that this is what happened to murdered 'tyrants'. There is absolutely no way he would have risked that fate. 
 
As it happened, of course, the senate panicked and fled before the assassins could make their speech - news of the killing reached the mob before any decrees could be passed and the whole thing blew up - leading to the odd situation of the killers being pardoned and the dead man being officially mourned. All in the interests of avoiding civil war - which worked for a few months, at least.

12-19-2004, 01:44 AM

A few observations on what others have said so far: 
We can't say for certain that Cleopatra would have been ritually strangled at the end like a male ruler. After all, Queen Zenobia of Palmyra walked in Aurelian's triumph and was given a comfortable retirement at Tibur. Granted, that was more than three centuries later, but the late Romans behaved scarcely more savagely than the early ones. 
I doubt that Caesar could have had imperial ambitions for Caesarion. It is generally agreed that the Romans would never have stood for the son of an Egyptian queen as their ruler, and in any case there was no precedent for a dictator's son inheriting the dictatorship. Augustus was at great pains throughout his life to avoid royal titles for himself, while weilding the power in practice. Caesar most certainly planned to put Caesarion on the throne of Egypt, though, and being king of the richest country in the world wasn't too shabby. 
As for the way the assassin's plot went awry, hey, the guys were going to do the bloody deed, slay the tyrant, and naturally the people would pelt them with flowers in humble gratitude. Nothing wrong with that sort of reasoning. Perle, Wolfowitz an Rumsfled, our modern tyrannicides, reasoned the same way.

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