New Kopis From Dioskouri

[katsika]

I think it was a personal preference, but it shows up more often in the later styles. Some of it could even be due to compression (whilst buried under dirt for centuries). Personally, I prefer it for the added protection as well as aesthetics.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That is my favourite corinthian...the original! :-o
And that reproduction looks fantastic.....not happy to hear the Manning comparison though.. :?

[katsika]

Yes, I too was a bit disappointed to see that Manning hammers and welds multiple pieces together to form their PHOSPHOR bronze (wrong alloy!) helmets. It is, however, very light, but that also means it won't hold up as well from a decent "crack on the skull" and might even delaminate or separate at the welds. The Manning isn't finished as well either, as it reveals many faults (pocks and ripples) upon closer scrutiny than their website seems to show.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

What does Dioskour charge for a helmet?

[katsika]

The price is not set yet, but all indicators point to the $1,000 ballbark. Once production begins, I am told the turn-around (order-to-delivery) time will be around 4 weeks (+ -). This is much quicker than the 4 year waiting peroid "elsewhere."

[caiusbeerquitius]

It is certianly the first TRUE Corinthian produced in the exact same way as the ancient Greeks in over 2,400 years.

What? Are they making a semi-cast from a handmade wax model and then work it over? Do they melt the bronze in a reconstructed melting oven with self-made charcoal, etc... ?

I read a few things on the homepage, claiming things which are are not exactly up to date with the academic discourse. E.g. the description of "pattern-welding" is IMO nonsense. What is to be seen on the originals is forging iron, which has, when corroded, a surface similar to flaky pastry. Also the comments about the different thicknesses of these helmets are not really correct methinks. Compare the detailed metallurgical analysis of greek helmets in:

H. Born, Die Helme des Hephaistos. Handwerk und Technik griechischer Bronzen in Olympia. München 2009.

[katsika]

What? Are they making a semi-cast from a handmade wax model and then work it over? Do they melt the bronze in a reconstructed melting oven with self-made charcoal, etc... ?

Yes.

[katsika]

I read a few things on the homepage, claiming things which are are not exactly up to date with the academic discourse. E.g. the description of "pattern-welding" is IMO nonsense.

Are we still talking about helmets? If we are now talking about swords, then I would suggest your "academic discourse" is the real nonsense here. I know for a fact (and have seen) Dioskouri has a relic sword (xyphos) and it clearly shows (under magnified view) layering of the iron on the edge, indicating a folding of the metal (pattern welding).

[caiusbeerquitius]

Are we still talking about helmets? If we are now talking about swords, then I would suggest your "academic discourse" is the real nonsense here. I know for a fact (and have seen) Dioskouri has a relic sword (xyphos) and it clearly shows (under magnified view) layering of the iron on the edge, indicating a folding of the metal (pattern welding).

No, as I wrote, I was talking about what I read on the homepage.

Folding metal is not pattern welding. Pattern welding is this:
Paul Binns on pattern welding

Also a magnified picture alone will not tell you whether the edge was actually folded or whether the material is forging iron. You´d need to cut a piece out of the blade and look at it, i.e. the cut edge with an electronic microscope. Your "fact" may well be just speculation. Ca you provide a picture of the weapon´s edge under the microscope? Otherwise It would be hard to believe the existence of pattern welding on a Greek Sword from that period. Is Dioskouris sword provenanced?

What? Are they making a semi-cast from a handmade wax model and then work it over? Do they melt the bronze in a reconstructed melting oven with self-made charcoal, etc... ?

Yes.

That is wonderful news! Will there be pics of the production on the site? If this is true, I´ll certainly order one of these helmets... :-D

[katsika]

I just got off the phone, talking to the folks at Dioskouri, and was told the website is presently under some upgrading - when finished, it will not only show selected pictures of the helmet under construction, but will address the "steel issues" we also discussed. These updates may be finished as soon as tonight, so you might wish to check in from time to time to see if they are there.

[KrimzonKnight]

Yeah, Iv been in contact with the guy from dioskouri (dont know his name :/) and was told he was going to have some videos up of him cutting up a pig. the blade of the kopis is only 17in long? seems rather short for my tastes, can they be made longer? same goes for the xiphos. As for the helmets, i hope the cheek pieces are more open. I really like the look of his brass helmet, i hope they look like that. i wonder if a transverse crest will be an option?

as for the pattern welding thing, i read there was a kopis found somewhere that showed it was pattern welded. it was from the 7th century bc. It was found in somewhere called vetulonia. Im not sure whether this is true or not though, and im no expert on any of this.... :/

[KrimzonKnight]

ohh and as for your manning helmet, if you dont want it, i would be willing to buy it off you in the future . Say what you will, but his helmets are very beautiful.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Last October i met with archeologists in Vergina for a two-days workshop. An archeologist had brought photos taken with an electronic microscope from the sections of greeks swords of the 5th and 6th century. These swords were definately folded many times with the addition of carbon, but this is not pattern welded, and even if some patterns were scarcely visible, this was not intended. It was the result of trying to harden the material by alternating soft and harder layers, since they couldn't add carbon to their alloy. This is already important news in itself. It is wrong to claim pattern welding in greek swords however.

I can't wait for the helmets too.

Khairete
Giannis

[katsika]

Eric,

The Dioskouri kopis and xiphos were both traced directly from actual artifact relics, so there should be no problem with the accuracy/authenticity of the length, etc.

Yes, the Manning is a nice helmet, and up to now, has been THE standard for accuracy (as we know the meaning of the word), but as I mentioned, it isn't the correct bronze (phosphor, not silicon) and it is hammered-and-welded in its construction (inaccurate again!). The Doiskouri helmet is constructed in as accurate a manner possible to not only produce a beautiful result, but to create it in a manner not far removed from how the Greeks themselves did it originally, as well as produce an unrivaled proper fit for the wearer. The Doiskouri are metallurgists, descended directly from metallurgists for over the three past generations, and much of the "information" I spout comes directly from the horse's mouth. I am assured that small details, such as cheek plate gaps, can easily be customized to the individual's personal preferences. Also, regarding the choice of metals used in the swords, the plan always was to also offer these in 1056 steel as well as Damascus, so everyone can feel comfortable with his personal choice.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Bill, i think it is time to clear that out, whilst phosphor bronze is indeed not the most accurate alloy one could use, silicon bronze isn't either. And of the two, phosphor is usually preferred as more accurate. It would be a pity if the Dioskouri made a great helmet from silicon bronze...

Also, we would make MI an injustice if we didn't say that the welded version is usually preferred by the custommers in order to reduce the cost, MI usually asks you if you want the welded or the one-piece version.
We would also make an injustice to Joe Piella that has also produced several one-piece corinthian helmets. Admittedly from sheet bronze, and not from partly cast stock that is then hammered to a sheet...Is that what the Dioskouri are intending to do?

Khaire
Giannis