New Video

[Theodosius the Great]

Yes, this frieze from Tunisia confirms it.

[Dany Boy]

Very good looking video I really like the scenario!
These two helmets are really cool!
Can we learn a little more about, who is making them if that is not a secret?

I will really appreciate if someone share photos and links about the original artifacts as I don’t know anything about them ad:

[Sandoval]

Hi everybody

This video was developed by some friends of RHTV, done with quality, as you have seen. It was done as a presentation for the people who organized the Second Punic War International Congress I attended in the University of Jaen (Spain) last week. In this Congress, we could learn about the research of a battlefield related to the battle of Baecula, where more than 2.000 metal pieces has been identified and more than 8.000 founded. Some of the members where prominent university researchers as Giovanni Brizzi from the Bologne University, the Rost from Kalkriese Museum, Fernando Quesada Sanz, Jaume Noguera from the big roman campament of La Palma, close to the Ebro, and so on... we could learn about the techniques of how it is being excavated, and compare it to the other big roman battlefield of Kalkriese.

The people on the video and working on the project are members of groups as the iberians of Ibercalafell, the greeks from Athenea Promakhos, the punics from Iboshim, and the republican romans from Evocati Apri Scipioni. There are several more people, as the members of AERA or some interested in Italy, and quite a few from other spanish groups.

About the material found in Cerro de las Albahacas, close to the village of Santo Tomé, in Jaén, Spain, I can provide you with a link from a person who could mace pics in the exhibition a year ago. It is:

http://www.redjaen.es/francis/?m=c&o=32613

You can see hobnails (about 770 found) lead slingers, javelins heads, a singular pilum, tent pickets, a lot of head-arrows... the sword is not included in the loot, it is from another place not related, I believe. There is also a pendant from a Signum or Standard (not knowing if roman or punic) and scabbard-buttons.

Interested that in the communications of Fernando Quesada Sanz, Florian Himmler and his job done 6-7 years ago about the loosing of hobnails from caligae in the 3-week walk was quoted as a big help for studying the dispersion and number of soldiers in the battle of Baecula (it is believed this is the site of the Polibian described battle)

And that's all, by the moment. Now we have to make research, build the items as close to the original artifacts as we can and... work it a lot.

Greetings,

David P. Sandoval
(AKA LVCIVS·MINICIVS·SCEPTIVS)
Evocati Apri Scipioni.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Thank you David for the link and your explanation

@Theodosius, a relief from Tunisia proved nothing unless it was found in a Carthaginian archeological context, ie before Rome ruled the region.

M.VIB.M.

[M. Demetrius]

But wasn't Tunisia part of Carthage-in-its-heyday?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

It sure was, but since many of the Carthaginian structures were thoroughly raised to the ground by Rome one has to be very careful attesting any relief to Carthage itself.

M.VIB.M.

[Theodosius the Great]

@Theodosius, a relief from Tunisia proved nothing unless it was found in a Carthaginian archeological context, ie before Rome ruled the region.

John's question was whether the Apis was still used. The frieze answers his question. Now whether the frieze was found in a Carthaginian context or not seems beside the point.

~Theo

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Sorry but that is a very dangerous statement you make there, it is also a bad historical judgement.

Basically you say any relief showing an aspis proves it was still in use. So also a Roman relief which shows an Aspis from the first century AD ? or the third century AD? or maybe the 4th century AD proves that it was still in use ?

Reliefs prove nothing in themselves, context does or does not add to the idea that what is depicted on a relief might be artistic license or plausible use.

M.VIB.M.

[Theodosius the Great]

In general that would be a bad modus operandi, I agree. But artistic archaism was a much later phenomenon. This frieze is too early for that to be the case. To assume otherwise is anachronistic thinking.

It wouldn't make sense if the frieze dated to the post-Carthaginian period as the hoplite phalanx was no longer in use anywhere (Greece and Carthage were both conquered in 146 BC). The Macedonian phalanx and Roman manipular legion superceded it completely. Neither of those systems are compatable with the Apis.

The only way I can see that the frieze may date to the Roman period is if it was carved shortly after the Third Punic War as part of a triumphal/trophy display to commermorate the conquest. In which case the frieze would still answer John's question in the affirmative.

~Theo

[barcid]

Then I take it you have suggestions on what would be correct? Either people use arms and armour that we know of, and may have been used, or we have them make up fantasy weapons and kit. Which do you feel is better?

I would feel that wearing only reconstructed equipment found in either an Iberian or Carthaginian context would be the best thing. The shields with the Fenician symbols are great looking as are the oblong white shields. Of course I will excuse the three Aspides and the equipment the Greeks were wearing, since the rest looked very very good. The Carthaginian way of fighting is well described by Polybios amongst others.

M.VIB.M.

someone correct me if im wrong ,to my understanding no armour & very few arms mostly sling stones ,arrow & javalin tips have been found in a punic context bar a helm found in a Numidian grave & the spectacular pectoral armour that are often quoted .cheers

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Nope you are correct.

M.VIB.M.

[Sandoval]

Although punic weaponry is not my reenacting field, I can tell you that the impression was correct for some of the people who witnessed the video. About the use or not of the aspis in a punic context during the Second Punic War, little references and suggestions I can provide you with, but there are some;

- Scholars like G. Brizzi, Fantar or Fernando Quesada believes the poenician army was fundamentaly a citizen army of hoplites in an Hellenistic way, at least till the First Punic War and with several hints of it afterwards. There is a text in Polybius (book I, fragment 33) about this "phalanx", and a continuity in Diodorus Siculus (book 14, 44,6) when he talks about the recruitment of citizens once more when Annibal is preparing for the marching on Rome (quotes of the ancient authors from the work of Quesada in the XXIII Meeting of arqueological evidences of the punic world in Ibiza, 2008).

- The Chimtou burial relief of the shield is dated in the II century BC, I believe, so I can't take it into the very 100% statement of it use, due to the unfound of arqueological evidences. But Carthage was a mediterranean poleis, in many features shared the hellenestic conception of war (charismatic leaders as the Barquids, for instance) and I have an idea; we don't refuse the use of aspides in battles fought in hellenistic kingdoms in Greece in the II BC, so, if it was in use, and we all know the good relations Carthage held with some of those hellenistic kingdoms (remember the alliance with Phillipus V of Macedon) and the quick transfer of war material trhough the Mediterranean sea... why not the use? take care, I don't take 100% sure the Aspis use but I try with this reasoning to bring into light why could it be used.

- On a battle, many weapons which can be re-use, are looted by the winner and therefore repaired for further uses. Thats why the archeologists find fundamentaly those things the figthers left; lead slingers, arrow-heads, spear-heads damaged... we know a lot of the roman army in the II BC thank's to the findings of Smihel, the sword of Delos, and the battles fought in Hispania. But the interesting thing is that the Delos sword and the findings of Smihel in II BC are quite close in a comparation with the reliefs of Ahenobarbus Altar or the Paulus one from Delfos. So I take more seriously the artistic views when compared whith a finding. Maybe then we can accept, till we find something, to use an Aspis, whether the proportion in front-line can be discussed.

Don't know if this can help, but remember the project is marching on, and all feedback and criticism is wellcome when providing a logical argument or a proof to complete our work.

Thanks,

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Thank you for the references David ! It sure is a mighty interesting project and long overdue. My comments were not about the Aspis as such, but more on the imagery on them, as well as some of the helmets worn and the Linothoraxes. The Greek section looked too old to me somehow.

M.VIB.M.

[barcid]

Good Post Sandoval / David .

im putting together 2 Punic impressions Myself .a Punic settler Sicily 4th cent bce & 1st. punic war using bronze modified pilos & cuirass ,aspis ,Greek spear ,spanish type IV sword & white wool tunic. All speculation of course.

also punic Heavy infantry 2nd. punic war .


[attachment=2185]withinlay.jpg[/attachment]my sword 8)

[attachment=2186]pilos.jpg[/attachment]my pilos.

ill be posting up some pics of my full impression soon . thats a Great video good work .

[Octavianus]

As part of the IIon Punic War project, we at Evocati are trying to build correct hastae velitaris (javelin) and republican pila. With wood from young trees or branches, hand forged points like the originals from Castellruf and Numantia and the size Polybius writed.
We are also practicing with this hastae and pila, with and without amentum (leather tong used to give more strength to the shot) and the results are amazing... More than 40 meters in some shots...