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Legionary Development AD43-93
#16
Yes - that's truth, Verdun 37 is here:
http://iza.zrc-sazu.si/si/Program/Lt.html

My replicas:
http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/j409...IEBEL2.jpg
http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/j409...IEBEL2.jpg
some other fibulas:

http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/j409...FIEBEL.jpg

The speer comes ab. one hour later here i don't have foto online.

Why i think it is the grave of cavalry? Because of the long sword - like 2 graves on the camatery Nospelt-Göbling.

Joze
I like LH
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http://www.kelten.biz/ (my HP on German)
http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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#17
Joze,

Some previous posting on the Idria/Verdun finds (including iron Imperial Gallic helmets [in auxiliary graves?])

www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?func=view&catid=17&id=281826

Nathan,

Had somehow missed your comment on Pre AD43 military equipment finds in the UK (probably because it was on the civilian forum, maybe I should be less bellicose and spend more time there!)

St Albans is a good point, I was thinking of Chichester, Fishbourne and that hoard in Leicestershire.
Tim Edwards
Leg II Avg (UK)
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiiavg.org.uk">http://www.legiiavg.org.uk
<a class="postlink" href="http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com">http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com
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#18
Many thnx i didn't know that you have talked about this graves;
here the speer reco of the Verdun 37 grave:
http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/j409...MG5519.jpg
http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/j409...MG5520.jpg
http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/j409...MG5521.jpg

Now i am going to read the textes.

Joze
I like LH
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http://www.kelten.biz/ (my HP on German)
http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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#19
Joze,

Excellent source material - some questions for you:

What copper alloy helms do you have for Mokronog IIIb? Do they survive beyond this phase? This may have a bearing on the present discussion if these were found in context.

I'd like to see images of the Smarjeta and Bela Kerkev groups. Would be fascinating to see if the diagnostic Norico-Pannonian finds end up elsewhere in Europe where such auxilia (?) were stationed.

Are Norico-Pannonian swords found in the same panopolies as Weisenau helms?, or is it just Mainz patterns by the end of Mokronog IIIb?

Is there any evidence for legionary recruitment from Norico-Pannonia in the early Principate?

Tim.
Tim Edwards
Leg II Avg (UK)
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiiavg.org.uk">http://www.legiiavg.org.uk
<a class="postlink" href="http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com">http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com
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#20
Hi, no - this helmets typus Nov mesto don't survive in AD time; they were existing only for some years. Yes: that's the point! The early variante of roman helmets: Weisenau D and i think, the G too, are with the long noric-swords together in the same graves but sometimes are they in paralele graves of the same time on the same cemetery: Verdun pri Stopicah. The leader of office for cultural herritage from Novo mesto Dr. Danilo Brescak is writting the book-study (for many years but he still didn't finish) about this late Lt D2 graves. He got me orig. archaeol. drawings and that are the base for doing of my replicas. I have some in my facebook profile, too.
Well, they don't survive but in Croatia from river Kupa from town Nova Gradiska comes another item of this helmet with human-mascs as decorattion.
Link: http://www.google.si/imgres?q=nova+gradi...x=87&ty=52

from museum in Osiek, Croatia (they have a book aboutr this item):http://www.google.si/imgres?q=nova+gradiska+keltska+kaciga&um=1&hl=sl&sa=N&biw=1024&bih=469&tbm=isch&tbnid=UVC6BF2D2YVuUM:&imgrefurl=http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4JaE7QsW_PS24BMZcuxP6g&docid=d7hRWyFRIw8lvM&itg=1&w=768&h=1024&ei=eJl8TvLnHsrb4QTNq-zIDg&zoom=1

the book:
http://www.google.si/imgres?q=nova+gradi...0Dg&zoom=1

The Weisenau helmets and another items from museum Novo mesto i posted yesterday in another thread about the Imperial gallic D from Slovenia (you have been linked it here).

About the romanisation and first roman Contacts in Slovenia you should ask here the RAT member Tromenta: he is leadder of roman group here and i think - he is archaelogist, too. I am really very new in reshearching of the time at the end of Lt D2 (Mokronog IIIb); my point was Lt D1 and the cemetery from Novo mesto: Beletov vrt, ab. 90 years earlier.
And at the end: on another cemetery - also very close to Novo mesto: the Strmec above the Bela cerkev = the same as Smarjeta near Bela cerkev (=booth names are publiched for this items!!)in the late Lt D2 graves are the same Noric-swords but for the roman helmets Weisenau D - there are some helmets of the typus Novo mesto from bronse with the wather-byrds decorations. And: in my first grave-reco from the Novo mesto. Beletov vrt, famous grave Nr. 169 is the same helmet typus Novo mesto but made of iron and with the animal, not the byrds. That mean that this time, Lt D1 and this grave "was moddel" for latter Novo Mesto helmet-typus and for that from Croatia, too.
But about the meaning of the first contacts beetween the celtic Taurisc and the Romans you should ask the Tromenta - he is working for the next RAT conference in Ljubljana next year that is the man i mean.

Joze
I like LH
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http://www.alauni.at/ (member)
http://www.kelten.biz/ (my HP on German)
http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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#21
Here only the foto of some items from the grave nr. 169, cemetery Beletov vrt, Novo mesto (T. Knez 1992), foto of mine (my first celtic presentation), Lt D1 ab. 110-100 BC ( la Tenne III, concrete: MokronogIIIa):

[Image: 00-GRAB-NR-169-NOVO-MESTO-2.jpg]

You can see the fragments of our first evidence for the helmet Typus Novo mesto made of iron and latter i posted they were in combination: iron + bronse (new cemetery: Mihovo i didn't posted yet) and more latter: from bronse (cemetery Strmec above Bela cerkev, publisheed as helmet from Smarjeta)

Joze
I like LH
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http://www.alauni.at/ (member)
http://www.kelten.biz/ (my HP on German)
http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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#22
Quote:


You can see the fragments of our first evidence for the helmet Typus Novo mesto made of iron and latter i posted they were in combination: iron + bronse (new cemetery: Mihovo i didn't posted yet) and more latter: from bronse (cemetery Strmec above Bela cerkev, publisheed as helmet from Smarjeta)

Joze

What is this helmet type? A montefortino or another type? Cheek pieces look similar!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#23
No, i am talking here abouth helmet typus Novo mesto: it is (native)genuine-type helmet and i linked the variation from Croatia, too: it is the same form, only the decoraiton was changed from animal to the wather-byrds and the material: from iron via iron+bronse to bronse.
It is the variation of the Port helmet, fotos are here on Kelticos:
http://www.kelticos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=88
That are fragments of helmet like here on link they are.

Joze
I like LH
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http://www.alauni.at/ (member)
http://www.kelten.biz/ (my HP on German)
http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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#24
Ahh, ok sorry. Guess i should read a little more closely before asking questions!
Thanks!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#25
Look - my english sounds terrible i know - it is good that you have been asking me but i posted acutually two textes with some fotos as the same part (unique): speaking about the indigenous helmet typus from Novo mesto and the reason was the question: if this typus survived in AD? No, he didn't.
We see the Gallic D helmet only a fiew years latter on the same cemetery of Verdun: i posted that fotos in thread Imperial Gallic D from Slovenia.
That was the reason of my question when i arrived here in forum in the beginners section: shuold i have the Galllic A helmet for Lt D2 augusteian performanse?
here (3 weeks ago): http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...0&start=20
I think no, because we have in paralele graves from that time with the same noric swords (brass or silver material for schabards) the later variante of the helmet of the Novo mesto typus: that one made from bronse, typus from Smarjeta (see the link from Kelticos). It goes. But it is not the same cemetery (is ab. 20 km distance) and i think there was antoher cultural group - less romanised! Actually i have problem, because of this situation:
cemetery Verdun, my place of my presentation:
- noric swords, romanised items, roman fibulas, etc but in this time: no helmet!
- roman gladii (posted fotos in thread Gallic D from Slovenia), other more romanised items and helmet Gallic D

cemetery Strmec above Bela cerkev - paralele time:
- noric swords, less romanised items, different helmet typus: Novo mesto typus made from bronze.

What dou you think should i use the Gallic A (because of highly romanised character of the grave-items from the cemetery Verdun, my place of presentation) or shuold i take the celtic helmet Novo mesto typus (bronze)?

I found a link on english with meaning that this is a roman helmet.... I think it is not, it is of the "mixing-time" period and i am doing this time.
The basical Port typus is a little to early for Augusteian time i think.
Joze

PS: please - read the next text because my text-windowis very small and i don't see the long text
I like LH
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http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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#26
My meaning about this situation:
The cultures on Strmec above Bela cerkev and that one of the Verdun were different. It is truth, that they both used the noric swords in the same time but their character and their evolution was different!
I posted that the helmet typus Novo mesto didn't survive. That means that the culture of Strmec didn't survive by the same character. This culture was less romanised.

My grave comes from Verdun: it is one of the first graves there. That's why he didn+t have any helmets.... because the helmets of this culture were later Gallic D (=roman). I posted fotos of that items.
From that time of my graves i should use not the geographical closest helmet from this area of the same paralele time but the helmet-typus determinated by the culture = rimanised culture
I change my view: i should use the roman Gallic A because the Gallic D didn't exist in time ab. 20-15 BC (the earliest grave-time of the graves from Verdun).

I was thinking 3 weeks about this problem - since i was coming here in forum.

Joze
I like LH
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http://www.alauni.at/ (member)
http://www.kelten.biz/ (my HP on German)
http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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#27
Well, to be honest, you have done a lot of research into your character, and come to the same conclusion I did, for a similar period impression.
Go with the tinned bronze Gallic A!
It is one of my favourite helmets. Elegant in its simplicity!
(an it fits my head!)

Your English is not so terrible! You manage to get a complex idea across
in a foreign language. I sometimes struggle to make other English speakers understand what I mean... :? :roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#28
Thank you! You are nice *)
The fact is - i would like to be and to show authentical items. My time is mixed time and about the roman-warefare i don't know much - i am really totally new in this time&presentation of the end of Lt D2.
Yes indeed: the DSC tinned bronze Gallic A goes. But now i have arguments, why
it goes.
The jackkaller got me the link of the DSC on PN three weeks ago, i didn't know this craftsman before. I put my question about the craftsmans wich could me make a helm of bronze in our celtic forum and i wrote some masseges to them, because i know them. They didn't answer s oi should take the DSC variante.
The LH is interesting hobby.

Joze
I like LH
______________
http://www.alauni.at/ (member)
http://www.kelten.biz/ (my HP on German)
http://www.kelti-living-history.com/ (my HP on Slovenian)
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