Gladiators Training Soldiers

[Brent Nielsen]

Bryan Wrote: I would have loved to get my old company in the Army to go hand to hand, it would have been quite cathartic to crack my first sergeant in the dome with anything made of wood!
Actually my friend, the troops hated it, they got injured, it was hot, nasty training, and they often felt clostrophobic. The happened especially when ordered to stand and hold, and be beaten with poled or have garbage and mud thrown on them. The men were more accustomed to the looser movements and relative freedom of boundig overwatch! LOL!
Squad leaders had to lead by example from the front, and Platoon sergeants had to mainttain the rear alignment...leaving formation was not a flogging offense but was worth a weeks pay no matter how much urine had been thrown in a soldier's face! There was NOTHING fun about it but very satisfying when the 'rioters' broke and ran!
For me the experience was research for my book, even though it took me thirty years to write it! LOL Have a good evening. Salve! Brent

[Bryan]

Brent,

I had heard about the Project 100,000 but could have sworn it was about allowing men who would have normally not meant the mental standards of enlistment/drafting and allowing them into the military. Years ago ('99) I had a Vietnam vet Sergeant Major who could barely read, one of the admin guys told me he looked in his service record and said that he was one of the 100,000. I don't know if it was true but it was scary that that man rose to the rank of E-9 considering how stupid he was.

As for the Vietnam shake and bake NCOs (and didn't they do that with officers as well?), it did not matter if they were looked down on by the old guard NCOs of WWII and Korea, they were still NCOs and the regs still applied, men had to obey them or face the consequences. My understanding after studying Vietnam and talking to some vets. was that so many older NCOs had either been killed or left the military that it was a necessity to promote new ones to fill the leadership positions. Similar to WWII and Korea where it was not uncommon to find a first sergeant in early twenties. Look up the famous SF Major Dick Meadows, Master Sergeant at 20. Col David Hackworth was a sergeant at 18 and captain by 20 in Korea. I believe the average age of a battalion commander in WWII was 27 years of age.

I saw similar situations occur recently while serving in the US Army. Because of the strain of repeated deployments to Iraq or A-Stan so many NCOs were leaving. To fill positions soldiers normally not suited or experienced enough were getting promoted quickly, I knew many that reached the rank of staff sergeant in 4 years. Before the war started that would have been impossible. Many griped about it but the positions were open and needed to be filled. Ultimately whether someone agrees with the decision or order is not the issue, it is a soldier's duty to obey orders even if they personally don't agree.

So if someone like Marius, a Consul of Rome and undisputed "military man" tells the centurions in his army that he will be bringing ex-gladiators to train them on sword play I think they might gripe amongst themselves but they would have obeyed. Marius had the power to scourge and behead anyone in his army without trial, right? Who is a lonely centurion to argue with him? Same with Marius' decision to enlist the Head Count. (similar to project 100,000 maybe?)

But than again this is just my opinion.

[Brent Nielsen]

Bryan wrote: So if someone like Marius, a Consul of Rome and undisputed "military man" tells the centurions in his army that he will be bringing ex-gladiators to train them on sword play I think they might gripe amongst themselves but they would have obeyed. Marius had the power to scourge and behead anyone in his army without trial, right? Who is a lonely centurion to argue with him? Same with Marius' decision to enlist the Head Count. (similar to project 100,000 maybe?)
But than again this is just my opinion.

Bryan I so totally agree with you! Finally we are on the same page! LOL! The VN era NCOs sucked it up and 'drove on' as I am sure Marius' men did...if he really used Gladiators as trainers!
BTW, the Centurionate in my book is made up of veterans of sixteen and more years. By book two, the many old timers are dead and they are replaced by twenty-four or younger Legios who, like Gaius Crastinus, Pullo and Vorenus. These younger men rise to the occasion. ...and the Centurionate(with a few exceptions),over a period of eight years, remains young until my proposed series ends at either Pharsallus or Actium (I haven't decided)and Octavian brings about the 'Pax Romana'!
BTW, many of the 100,000 started out in two year colleges. Administrators allowed them into state sponsored institutions, where anyone could get in without an entrance requirement, to keep up their numbers! My 'McNamaras' were idiots too, but this is neither the time nor place to get into such a discussion! email me: [email protected]. Or friend me on Facebook!

[Olaf]

I do not think that Gladiatura would have been regarded as fancifull or ineffective by military people.
Actually many permanent Legionary forts had small Amphitheatres.
Gladiator combat was considered a high martial art, so it would be more like MMA fighters instructing the troops in effective Close Combat techniques and not Wrestlers showing them how to fight more spectacular in combat.
The illfated rivercrossing of Othos Gladiator Manipels in the civil war against Vitellius might show that these were indeed considered tough fighters on the battlefield. Though the Gladiators are defeated, it is especially mentioned that this was because of the bad footing provided on their crafts and not because of a lack of fighting skills.
Also Vitellius sends his elite Batavians against them, so he also does not take any chances with Gladaitors as adversaries.

Though a Gladiator was considered Infamia, just like other Romans who had to "sell" their bodies to provide for themselves, he was also expected to exemplify and to aspire to the highest Roman virtues.
So I would expect a pragmatic military Centurion and Miles to have a healthy respect for the special skills a Gladiator would be able to convey to his troops.

[Dan Howard]

I tried to figure out a way in my mind how a Centurion would take training from someone considered lower status than he but I still haven't figured it out except for a flat out order from the Consular commander (ie. Marius) stating emphatically that "You will participate and like it!" Or maybe the lanistas or ex-gladiators only talk about the practice and demonstrate it to the Centurionsbefore getting their paycheck and heading home, allowing the Centurions to save face. Besides, I am not about to argue with the esteemed Valerius Maximus.

I imagine that it would be like a modern drill sergeant being expected to take orders from a WWF wrestler. In Roman society they are no better than actors and prostitutes.

[Bryan]

To all who still doubt the whole gladiator training soldiers,

M. Caecilius nailed the historical sources in the second post on the thread, he documents several quotes that prove that gladiators or their lanista trainers were used to train soldiers.

Furthermore, for those that doubt that a "professional" warrior would take advise or training from a social inferior I have this example. A few years ago the US Army and Marine Corps contracted out to 18-20 year old civilians who were competition shooters to teach some of their men on how to shoot long range. The demand was so great that normal sources to look (Snipers and Marksmanship Units) were too busy. Now remember, the Soldiers and Marines receiving the training were generally combat veterans with a bunch of NCOs thrown in the mix. (Called train-the-trainer) So why would a combat hardened Sergeant listen to a snot nosed college kid who only shoots at paper? two reasons:

1. The kids actually knew what they were talking about. They might not understand combat but they knew how to make bullets go where they want.
2. The commanding officers of said Soldiers and Marines said "Go and learn" and the men did as ordered. Worst comes to worst, they get a week off from normal duty.

For those that have ever served in the military can vouch that there are plenty of degrading experiences that come as part of the job, even for those that make it to command positions life is still full of experiences where you are "pooped" on by others on a constant basis. Its part of the whole serving and sacrifice thing I guess.

How about ordering a legion to build a road or aqueduct. "I didn't join for this! We are soldiers not slave laborers! We refuse to do it, it is beneath us!" I don't think many centurions would have said that.

Whatever the social standing of a gladiator the sources provided by M. Caecilius (awesome pull!) lend weight behind the argument. So don't complain to me, bring it up with Valerius Maximus, Vegetius, Cato, Caesar and the others. They're the ones that said it!

[Olaf]

I imagine that it would be like a modern drill sergeant being expected to take orders from a WWF wrestler. In Roman society they are no better than actors and prostitutes.

Actually the WWF wrestler analogy is quite wrong as I did outline in my post above.
The Infamia shared between Gladiators, prostitutes and actors was caused by all of them "selling" their bodys to provide for their living, nothing more.
Vegetius in his Vegetius De Re Militari advocates the return of the training at the Palus and says (Veg. DRM II.23):
Armaturam, quae festis diebus exhibetur in circo, non tantum armaturae, qui sub campidoctore sunt, sed omnes aequaliter contubernales cotidiana meditatione discebant
Translated by Lieutenant John Clarke (1767):
Not only those under the masters at arms, but all the soldiers in general, were formerly trained incessantly in those drills which now are only exhibited as shows in the circus for particular solemnities.
Here Vegetius is refering to skills of arms that in his time are only exhibited in the circus (exhibetur in circo) though I would consider this a reference to Gladiator combat.

Refering to the training with the Palus Vegetius writes (Veg. DRM XI):
Palorum enim usus non solum militibus sed etiam gladiatoribus plurimum prodest. Nec umquam aut harena aut campus inuictum armis uirum probauit, nisi qui diligenter exercitatus docebatur ad palum.
This is an invention (the Palus) of the greatest use, not only to soldiers, but also to gladiators. No man of either profession ever distinguished himself in the circus or field of battle, who was not perfect in this kind of exercise.

So Vegetius, in lamenting the poor fighting skills of the Soldiers of his time, advised to take up training exercises he knows from the sources mentioned above.
He also frequently mentiones the Armatura as a military skill almost forgotten in his time. The way he uses this word hints at what could be interpreted as a Roman Martial Art that was practised by Gladiators and Soldiers alike.

[Brent Nielsen]

To Dan Howard: Okay...your latin is MUCH better than mine but you continue to make your (very excellent) points in conjunction with the words 'consider' and 'could be interpreted'. I interpret it much differently and we are gonna have to agree to disagree! But WTF, isn't that the purpose? When this question comes up in my books I promise I will have one or two guys eating the gladiator lessions up while the rest think it is a pile of excrement! LOL! And that is very likely WHAT DID occur when Caesar supposedly did such a (reprehensible/remarkable) thing! :lol: