Gladiators Training Soldiers

[Bryan]

I remember reading from multiple secondary sources that Gaius Marius used ex-gladiators to train his armies; some accounts also mention he got the idea from his colleague Publius Rutilius Rufus.

I am wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of the the primary ancient sources.

Thanks,

Bryan

[M. Caecilius]

My edition of Vegetius [P. Milner, Liverpool University Press, 1996 (2nd edition)] comments: "Cato de Re Mil. fr. 14... mentions gladiatorial training,so that P. Rutilius Rufus, cos 105 BC, will not have been the first to introduce gladiatorial methods of training to the army, despite Val. Max. 2.3.2. Cf. also Auct. de Bell. Afr. 71 and Amm. 16.12.49." The footnote pertains to I.11 (training with posts).

The quote you are looking for is Valerius Maximus 2.3.2: "Armorum tractandorum meditatio a P. Rutilio consule Cn. Malli collega militibus est tradita: is enim nullius ante se imperatoris exemplum secutus ex ludo C. Aureli Scauri doctoribus gladiatorum arcessitis vitandi atque inferendi ictus subtiliorem rationem legionibus ingeneravit ..." "The handling practice of weapons was taught to soldiers from P. Rutilius, consul, colleague of Cn. Mallius, onwards: Without following the example of any general before himself, through gladiatorial instructors from the school of M. Aurelius Scaurus he generalised in the legions a more subtle method of avoiding hits and of hitting... "

Cato's comment in his de Re Mil. has been recorded by Nonius: "disciplinosus etiam de re pessima arte potest dici. Cato de Re Militari (14): 'quam gladiator disciplinosus' (Nonius, s.v. disciplinosus, W.M. Lindsay, de compendiose doctrina libros XX). If my translation works: "one can also say 'disciplinosus' (=well-trained) of a very bad art. Cato, on Military Matters: 'well-trained as a gladiator'. The context here does not seem to necessarily suggest to me that soldiers (whose role Milner seems to infer from the presence of the sentence in a book on soldiery) were trained by gladiators, but rather that they were trained to the same degree, possibly in the same art.

The African War simply mentions that "Caesar... was necessitated to instruct his soldiers, not like a general of a veteran army which had been victorious in so many battles, but like a fencing master training up his gladiators"; Ammianus speaks of a fight "in modum mirmillonis": these do not mention actual gladiators, but merely their methods.

Which leaves, as far as I can see, Valerius Maximus as the only source - of those referred to by Milner - which directly mentions gladiatorial trainers as being used in the army.

Best,
Max C.

[Bryan]

Max,

I thank you. You are a wealth of great information.

Bryan

[Brent Nielsen]

I read a reference to Caesar replacing his depleted number of Centurions with gladiators (with poor rersults similar to the MCNamara 100,000 in Viet Nam) but I cannot find it again. Can anyone help me here?

[M. Caecilius]

Caesar, B.C. I.14 perhaps?

"At Capua they first began to take courage and to rally, and determined to raise levies in the colonies, which had been sent thither by the Julian law: and Lentulus brought into the public market place the gladiators which Caesar maintained there for the entertainment of the people, and confirmed them in their liberty, and gave them horses and ordered them to attend him; but afterward, being warned by his friends that this action was censured by the judgment of all, he distributed them among the slaves of the district of Campania, to keep guard there."

So, the bodyguard of Lentulus rather than centurions of Caesar, finally sent off to do some kind of police work.

Otherwise, it seems pretty insulting to replace highly decorated Roman citizen soldiers with lowly, normally unfree men suffering usually from infamia. How many Roman citizens would have accepted to be ordered around by what was usually considered the lowest of the low, socially spoken? This would indeed by "censured by all", and Lentulus did not even go that far! Such a quote could come from a source hostile to Caesar: supporters of political enemies (largely in the context of Clodius and Milo) would be called gladiators, sometimes against all evidence. It would therefore be very interesting if this reference could be found.

The Romans did employ slaves in their armies, but it took a major catastrophe like Cannae. Under Tiberius, the Aedui tried to put gladiators into their army (a rebel force, not a Roman legion).

[Sacrovir's] followers amounted to forty thousand; one-fifth armed on the legionary model; the rest with boar-spears, hangers, and other implements of the hunting-field. To these he added a contingent of slaves, destined for the gladiatorial ring and encased in the continuous shell of iron usual in the country: the so‑called "cruppelarians" — who, if too weighty to inflict wounds, are impregnably fortified against receiving them. (Tacitus Ann.3.43)

with a rather comedic result when the Roman army caught up with them:

the iron-clad men offered a brief impediment, as their plating was proof against javelin and sword. But the legionaries caught up their axes and picks and hacked at armour and flesh as if demolishing a wall: others overturned the inert masses with poles or forks, and left them lying like the dead without an effort to rise again. (ibid, 3.46).

Max

[M. Caecilius]

In addition to what I outlined above, I just now found out that this topic has been discussed before:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...&id=292060

[Olaf]

Also you will find that I have compiled some sources of Gladiators "serving" as soldiers here:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...&id=149230

[Bryan]

Max C.,

You nailed the answer earlier, exactly what I was looking for in regards to commanders bringing former gladiators/lanistas to train their armies in proper sword fighting techniques.
I also posted the other thread you mentioned a while back, it looks like Colleen McCullough used some dramatic licence when she wrote in her novels that Caesar frequently enlisted used ex-gladiators as centurions in his army. I was just trying to see if there were any any sources that had mentioned it.

Bryan

[Brent Nielsen]

Maybe Colleen McCullough was where I saw it but her reasearch is usually so impeccable...oh well still Historical Novel!

[Brent Nielsen]

To Bryan:
Quintius Clavius wrote in a previoous thread: "the Profession of Gladiator was always considered as very low, similar to prostitutes, actors and understakers." Is this why lanistas prostituted some of them out to wealthy equestrian women? I know the successful ones enjoyed near r'rock-star' status but wasn't more in relation to the amount of money their patrons and fans won betting on them than the actual victories themselves? I know that Gladiator contest NEVER eclipsed chariot racing the NASCAR of the day.

I would also think that their use as instructors would be treated with contempt by the Centurionate not only because of their low status but their flashy 'performer' style of arena fighting would be completely out of sinc with the proven Legion 'punch with the umbo, thrust with the gladius, avoid entrails while stepping over the body, repeat as neccessary' technique.

[Bryan]

Brent,

I partially agree, I tried to figure out a way in my mind how a Centurion would take training from someone considered lower status than he but I still haven't figured it out except for a flat out order from the Consular commander (ie. Marius) stating emphatically that "You will participate and like it!" Or maybe the lanistas or ex-gladiators only talk about the practice and demonstrate it to the Centurionsbefore getting their paycheck and heading home, allowing the Centurions to save face. Besides, I am not about to argue with the esteemed Valerius Maximus.

As for the simplicity of gladius/scutum fighting I really don't know where that came from because I went ahead and build some plywood shields and wooden swords and my buddy and I have went toe to toe a few times and it definitely gives you an appreciation for the fighting style. Since all the sources and archaeological records generally agree that most of the enemies the Romans faced also carried shields I don't see the Romans having that much of an advantage, shorter sword or not. Furthermore, I keep reading on this website and many others that the barbarion Gauls or Germans were just a horde of untrained sword fodder which I don't think is accurate, unless I missed something they were warrior cultures which usually implies that they trained often.

In my own observations (after a fat lip and bruised knee both from my own scutum) I realized how much technique comes into play. Punching forward with the scutum works great till, as my friend demonstrated, your opponent punches his low at the same time. My shield tipped over downward, smashed into my leg and then he had a clear shot to my face. I need to practice more, wish a gladiator was around to show me.

[Brent Nielsen]

I wasn't suggesting the Centurionate refused, I was merely pointing out it would have been a VERY unpopular order!
One on one I can believe skill comes into play and injuries? Oh HECK yeah! But I too have scrimmaged with wooden weapons and when standing shoulder to shoulder a formation (Panama 1979-1982)...in our case it was a thirty man rifle platton (riot control with scutas and rudi) against two and three more platoons of 'rioters'. It was nearly impossible to do anything but bash with the scuta and thrust with the rudis as we advanced(which was pretty relentlessly), against opponents armed with tent poles eight foot long! They threw rather than slingshotted dirt clods instead of rocks but these were guarrenteed to put a man on his back for a moment at least! I simply speak from personal experience.
I think gladiator fighting would have been looked upon as an act of flamboyance by professional Centurions, on parr with modern day wrestling (only no talking! LOL). Some of the moves I see gladiator re-enactors perform are spectacular to watch but would get a legio killed (possibly by his own mates)standing in a formation that was anything but 'manipulos laxare'. Unfortunately that supposedly 'standard formation' we attempted many times to no avail because of the inclination for the men to close down on the scutum to the right for the cover it provided! Thrusting was all they could manage. Maybe cause we couldn't beat them with a vitis? Josephes description paints the picture for me: "THier drills were bloodless battles; their battles, bloody drills!" Speaks volumes to me, maybe I am reading it differently than you? Cheers! Salve!

[Bryan]

Brent,

Wasn't disagreeing with you, actually believe you are right in most regards. I can see fancy sword fighting tactics not working but knowing how to properly thrust with a gladius because you did it ten thousand times against a wooden pole at least makes you stronger.

I still think it helps to have professions teach you . You were in the Army, did you ever have some high speed SF guys come over and teach you some cool stuff? I sure did and I can say that even though it was unorthodox it definitely didn't hurt.

As for the fighting I wish I could get more people involved. Not trying to become a gladiator or Roman soldier myself but just want to try to picture what a fight could be like. I try to be as accurate as I can in the sparring, we rope off space parallel to us to signify ranks, can only go forwards or backwards, no turning or side stepping.

I would have loved to get my old company in the Army to go hand to hand, it would have been quite cathartic to crack my first sergeant in the dome with anything made of wood!

Of lately I have been starting to get a picture in my head that ancient hand to hand fighting wasn't as vicious as I'd thought before. Couldn't have been a meat grinder fight, casualty stats tell a different story. Most men hiding behind shields stabbing blindly, a few bloodthirsty type A guys that lives for the thrill of combat and who do most of the damage and take most of the casualties.

[M. Caecilius]

Just came across an interesting passage in Livy 44.9.6 which may be useful for this topic. I've posted it in a thread about the early testudo, but it seemed to fit, for other reasons, with this thread to.

After complaining about the lavishness of the games of his time, he claims that in the 2nd century B.C., they included demonstrations by youths. "As one of these performances, groups of about sixty youths [Schlesinger annotates that this is a rough equivalent of a century] entered under arms. Their entrance was in some respects an imitation of military menoeuvers, but in other respects was of a style more showy than the military and ore akin to the fashion of gladiatorial combats. After passing through various evolutions in this manoeuvre ... would form in ranks, with shields close-set over their heads, the front rank erect, the second somewhat stooped, the third and fourth more so, and the rear rank down on their knees. so that they would form a 'tortoise' sloped like the roof of a house. Next two armed men, seperated by an interval of some fifty feet, would rush out, feint at each other, and mount from bottom to top of the 'tortoise' over the close-set shields. They would then act as if skirmishing at the outer edges of the 'tortoise'... and leap about just as if they were on solid ground." (Livy, loc. cit., translation A.C. Schlesinger, Loeb Edition)

I don't know from this text whether Livy means such shows were part of gladiatorial shows, or simply would have done well there even if they were only used for military training and parades (or some of the more religious shows connected with the military?), nor is it evident at all that gladiatorial trainers or gladiators were ever involved at any stage of this show - I believe the reference to gladiatorial merely means Livy wants to emphasise the spectacular and showy nature of the manoeuvre, rather than suggest gladiatorial involvement - but I thought I'd post it here.

[Brent Nielsen]

To Bryan: Just after Viet Nam I was in ROTC and our tac instructors were SF because the war was over and the Army was giving them something to do. Yes it was way cool!
1SG rarely got involved in that Riot training...it was the Lieutenants (like me) Pvts had the most fun trying to send to the hospital!
Durung Viet Nam, Secretary of Defense McNamara proposed sending young men with college degrees through a 'shake and bake' training program that made them instant sergeants in the firm belief their advanced education made them qualified to lead. These members of "McNamara's 100,000 were one of trhe worst programs the army ever instituted with men who lacked the experience and maturity. They were looked down upon with disdain by 'old regulars' from WWII and Korea although some were still around by the 1980's. I think hte professional Centurios would have looked down their noses at the 'showmen' much the way boxers and arena fighters would look down on professional wrestlers. Gladiators were expensive to maintain and for that reason were seldom actually allowed to die in the arena! Just a gut reaction to the overall Roman attitudes toward slaves...who were not allowed in hte army just as Blacks were not allowed to be desegregated until 1940...what six or nine? This is just my take on my research, and how I intend to use it in my novel, but I could be wrong! Sorry it took me so long to get back to ya!