Use of whistles to relay commands in battle

[ParthianBow]

OK, I presume the answer to this is 'No', but does anyone know of any recorded instances of whistles being used by the Roman army?

[ParthianBow]

OK, found a thread (not found on initial search under 'whistle' :evil which has posts stating that there's no record of them being used in the legions. Some whistles have been found in Regensburg, however, a site at which a legion was based. Their purpose is unknown. Does anyone know if those whistles were found in the legionary fortress?

Thanks.

[Titus Marius Secundus]

Surely whistles must have been used in battle during some period of the legions. In the TV series Rome, they show this and how effective it is for changing ranks. Now tell me, what better way could you signify a change in ranks every 5 minutes other than a whistle blow. A blow of a horn maybe. It could vary no? If there's only one finding of a whistle on any military grounds or battle fields, then I would say its unlikely they were used much at all. Maybe by older time periods before the Imperial stage? And also, whistles are known to be made of wood, thus decreasing their chances of survival... ( they are small objects, and by the amount of land we actually do excavate, I doubt we'll find one if it's there, thus no recorded usage of them)

Hope this enlightens a little,

Sam

[Robert Vermaat]

Surely whistles must have been used in battle during some period of the legions. In the TV series Rome, they show this and how effective it is for changing ranks.

So now we're using evidence from TV shows? I guess they could have used megaphones too, which would have been extremely efficient. Or perhaps a com system with earphones! Sorry about that irony, btw., but the point here is that we do not have any records about the use of whistles in the Roman army. Same with drums btw - we're so used to hearing drums in a military context that it's hard to find a movie that does not have Romans marching on the sound of drums.

[Sean Manning]

If the Romans did rotate men forward and backwards inside each cohort during battle (and while it seems practical to us, many armies would have disagreed- they put the best fighters with the best kit and the steadiest personalities in front, and let the less enthusiastic people cheer and throw and push from the middle) they could probably have done it with voice commands or gestures during lulls.

[ParthianBow]

Thanks for your replies. So the answer is 'No', as I thought.

Back to the Regensburg whistles. Does anyone know if these (or other whistles that have been discovered) were found within the confines of the Roman fortress?

Thanks.

[Fruitbat]

This is a very interesting thread. We seem to know so much about the extraordinary things in the ancient world, and so little about the day-to-day things. This knowledge would have been second nature to every legionary, so it is hard to believe that nothing survives.

I live in hope, please prove me wrong someone.

[A_Volpe]

Just because they found a whistle does not mean it was purely a battlefield piece. Perhaps whistles were used by soldiers on 'police duty' within a city ~ just like our 'modern' concept of police.

Although at the moment I do not recall any surviving written evidence for whistles being used specifically by soldiers in such a role..?

[M. Caecilius]

Just because they found a whistle does not mean it was purely a battlefield piece. Perhaps whistles were used by soldiers on 'police duty' within a city ~ just like our 'modern' concept of police.

Although at the moment I do not recall any surviving written evidence for whistles being used specifically by soldiers in such a role..?

The concept existed after a fashion: there is evidence for the 'police' forces using bells: "For those who guard communities at night carry a bell, in order to be able to signal to the inhabitants whenever they need to do so." (Cassius Dio 54.4.4). A single reference cannot, unfortunately, confirm or deny whether at some other time and place, or even conjointly, whistles were used. They do have the advantage that they don't take up a hand.

Max C.

[A_Volpe]

single reference cannot, unfortunately, confirm or deny whether at some other time and place, or even conjointly, whistles were used. They do have the advantage that they don't take up a hand.

Yup, I agree with you that we can't run off with one somewhat vague reference. But I did not know bells were in use at all (for policing) so that itself is interesting to note. But that also doesn't say anything about whistles.

so I suppose for the moment we're going to have to accept that what was seen in "Rome" was conjecture in the flavor of 'modern' military signaling.

There is a book out there on Roman Military Signaling, I haven't found/read it yet - I wonder if there is more info in it?

[kazeryu]

...so I suppose for the moment we're going to have to accept that what was seen in "Rome" was conjecture in the flavor of 'modern' military signaling.

Conjecture, yes, "modern", not so much - while the exact authorship and dating of The Art of War is debatable, it appears that everyone agrees it was written no later than 300 BC.

7.17: The Book of Military Administration says: "As the voice cannot be heard in battle, drums and bells are used. As troops cannot see each other clearly in battle, flags and banners are used." (Samuel B. Griffith's translation)

I'm sure there are plently of other ancient historical precendents for sound and flags being used in military operations as signals, but that was the easiest one for me to quote.

Once you have a certain number of men and a desire to do anything more complicated than general melee, you need some form of communication -- it might be whistles, bells, horns, drums, etc., but it will still have to exist! (Sending messengers around becomes impractical after a while...)

[ParthianBow]

So no one knows if the whistles were found in Regensburg. Oh well, thanks for all the interesting posts.

I have described centurions using whistles in my latest book, and have acknowledged at the back that we have no idea whether they did or not. I was hoping to have the back up of saying that whistles were found in a military fortress (Regensburg), but I'll just have to do without.

[Nathan Ross]

Is there any evidence of the military use of whistles prior to the first world war? I'd always assumed it was an expedient adopted by the British army in 1914, and dropped soon afterwards.

A whistle wouldn't really be much good on a packed noisy ancient battlefield, I wouldn't think. The use of the horn and the standard - plus the familiar voice of the centurion - would be much more effective. Besides, the enemy would only need to invest in a couple of whistles themselves, and blow them wildly, to throw the Roman front lines into total chaos!

[Titus Marius Secundus]

HAHA sooo true and funny!

[Gaius Longius]

Hi Ben,

Here in Chester we have a whistle from the Deanary Fields Barrack block within the fortress, but experience of the noise generated in a battle scenario show whistles and individual voices are ineffective with only the tone frequencies of horns cutting through.

Regards,

Gary.