However, in one of your drawings (Pullo and Vorenus, Caesarian soldiers), you gave the centurion a paludamentum of plaid cloth. Is there any reason for this?
Yes, it was illustrating that in a campaign scenario I would envisage that normal supplies would be severely disrupted and that under those circumstances a Centurion might replace a worn out paludamentum with some locally looted material. Mark Antony returned from Gaul wearing Gallic clothing and footwear much to the disgust of Cicero. The ordinary soldiers on campaign undoubtedly replaced their clothing or repaired it with local material as well. The Republican supply system appears to have been a bit more ad hoc than the Imperial in any case.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Heres a Gallic coat i knocked up over the weekend, the fabric is "hard Tartan" and a very thick and heavy weave. Its blowing a gale here at thee moment and it stops the wind very well, i'll be waterproofing too.
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
However, in one of your drawings (Pullo and Vorenus, Caesarian soldiers), you gave the centurion a paludamentum of plaid cloth. Is there any reason for this?
Yes, it was illustrating that in a campaign scenario I would envisage that normal supplies would be severely disrupted and that under those circumstances a Centurion might replace a worn out paludamentum with some locally looted material. Mark Antony returned from Gaul wearing Gallic clothing and footwear much to the disgust of Cicero. The ordinary soldiers on campaign undoubtedly replaced their clothing or repaired it with local material as well. The Republican supply system appears to have been a bit more ad hoc than the Imperial in any case.
Graham.
But if a (auxiliary) soldier would buy a Gallic coat/sagum in the nearby vicus/village, checkered cloth would be possible? I bought some before I posted my question, and I'm not going to throw it away. :lol: I'm desperately looking for an excuse to use it.
Valete,
Titvs Statilivs Castvs - Sander Van Daele LEG XI CPF
COH VII RAET EQ (part of LEG XI CPF)
I think if you will find any archaeological evidence for it - not yust the writting of some chronists... we in the celtic LH-szenne say that one evidence for some item doesn't mean a common use for it. Example: we have here in Slovenia some items of the scythian's arrows. But this doesn't mean that our antecestors of the iron age here were figting with the scythians bows.
And seems nobody read my textes here - we don't know if all gallic or celtic textiles were strong chechered... first you should know more evidence of them in la Tenne time (do you know them?).... the gallic or celtic or germanic textiles could be made of monochorme textiles, too.
Well I know that one legionary centurio reenactor usually wears a checked tunic with short sleeves. According to him the pattern is based off one of the pieces of cloth from Vindolanda.
Also might I ask where this idea that the auxilia (I mean by this the regular cohorts of auxilia) are less romanised than the legions comes from. After all, the rhineland tombstones of auxilia show them in completely romanised dress and considering that as far as I know (open to correction here) they would often be stationed away from their home area, would adopt army customs rather than some native style (e.g. Sarmatians stationed on Hadrian's wall would be unlikely to continue dressing in steppe dress or suddenly adopt native british customs and clothing.
HI, yes i understand you: it is ok if some reenactors wears the checked tunic (by Vindolanda archäeol. evidence). But what knows we more about this textiles-items from Vindolanda? Why they are checked ? Wich reason? Do we exactly know wich piece of clothes was it (made by this checkered patterns)? And: yust one evidence means and says us nothing of usually common use of the textile patterns for the roman military tunic. We don't know, if maybe they were earlier or latter more or less checkered.... if we will take only this one evidence from Vindolanda's textile-items. We should to understand and to see the roman military clothes in common sense-way; in the context. It is very good to know some individual items like this from Vindolanda but the "main stream" of the military clothing by the Romans were not checkered. I told you the Germanic or Celtic/Gallic textiles were not usually checkered. They were maded by another patterns and weaving-styles, too.
but again: i think that the military textile production by the Romans was mass-produced in big manufactures: in a short time, quickly - like in the late la Tenne time of the oppida culture, too. That means the textiles were simple-maded, in a weaving style of tabby, somethimes 2/2 twill. The military significants were ordered by the protocols and the tunic were a part of that significants, too.
"The way they (the Celts) dress is astonishing: they wear brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the separate checks close together and in various colours." - Diodorus Siculus
It's not that checkered cloth did not exist at all. Diodorus is talking about the celts (la tene period) here - note he only refers to cloaks as being checkered.
Valete,
Titvs Statilivs Castvs - Sander Van Daele LEG XI CPF
COH VII RAET EQ (part of LEG XI CPF)
I din't say that the checkered has never exist - but it was not "the holly rule" by the textiles by the barbarians. By the visual presentations on the greek's pottery like this is we don't know, who was this barbarian man, wich tribe? We yust know that he has cheskered trousers but he could be xy tribe... and somethimes the greeks wore the throusers, too (didn't know it?) and somethimes the greek's textiles were checkered, too. And the text of the Diodorus .... is not an archaeological item; it is text of stranger who wasn't understand the barbarian's culture and we should be very careful by the interpretation of this part of this text. In german forum of living history we had diskussion exactly of this part of the text and at least: the celtic culture exist many 100 years ... we know that the textile production was changing rapidly in this longe time. If this text will be the only one evidence of the checkered clothes than will be many good Eu-celtic reenactors completelly different (i mean design of their clothes). But we knows some textile items and we know that checkered wasn't be the "holly rule" by the all of the textiles. And we know that the fashion in the iron age was changing their attributes. And we know that "checkered design" doesn't mean normal design ala tartan (not in la Tene time!) - the evidences of them look/are different in their form. By the Germans are the checkered textile evidences normally by the items of the coats. The throusers and the tunic are usually evidented monochrome in different weaving techniques and with less ornaments.
Hi Jose I agree entirely with what your saying, My view is decoration in many cases was more subtle with the effect of the weave itself being the main decorative element, at Vindolanda which has the largest surviving group of datable roman period textiles on a roman site and we are talking about Roman soldiers here, only one small piece of purple dyed check has been found the vast majority is diamond twill(64%)with the rest simpler forms of 2/2, 2/1 twill, tabby and half basket weave (30%) about one third was proven to be dyed.. given the location you may have expected to find more checks....
"Marcus Aemilius Longinus" wrote:
"Well I know that one legionary centurio reenactor usually wears a checked tunic with short sleeves. According to him the pattern is based off one of the pieces of cloth from Vindolanda."
Not meaning any disrespect But and hes able to reconstruct the pattern of the cloth and an entire garment from one small piece decribed as "about the size of a piece of toilet paper"?... sounds more like wishfull thinking to me... I would suggest a cloak with at least some purple lichen dye in some of the threads as a possibility... For all we know this could have been something else entirely, a blanket for sleeplng in for example its not automatically a piece of everyday clothing.
To my mind modern "Tartan" style textiles is not the way to go...
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
To my eyes, the Volubilis Celt is wearing separate hose rather than trousers, with a different check on each. Given that they are easier to manufacture, is there any evidence for hose?
There is an example of a tartan in the national musueum of Scotland dated to the 3rd century AD, it was unearthed in Falkirk, Stirlingshire. Tartan apparently did exist in our period. Now i'm not saying that any Roman Soldier wore it but it is a fact the soldiers over time adopt clothing that better suited the envoiriment they operated in, this clothing is often manufactured locally. We have literature describing celtic cloaks, we have visual evidence and primary evidence (from the 3rd century) in the form of the actual material. We know that Roman soldiers formed relationships and had families with the locals, their families would not have had their clothing supplied by the unit and in all likelihood would have made their own clothes including the supplimentary clothing that the soldier would have needed, having been on exercise in Otterburn and Warcop training areas in winter i speak from experience. From this and in my opinion the checkered clothing worn by some reenactors is appropriate though no more appropriate than plain block colours.
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
You mean this...made from natural coloured soay sheep brown and white wool... looks very similar to the leggings though...
"In 1933, during an archaeological dig at Falkirk, an earthenware pot containing Roman coins and two scraps of two-toned woolen fabric was unearthed. The coins dated from between 83BC and 230AD, so it was considered safe to assume that the cloth was from the 3rd century when Falkirk was under Roman occupation."
Not exactly what I had in mind for "Tartan"...
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Sorry - the term "Celts" doesnt exist in the 3 cent. AD... and we don't have literature to describing the celtic cloaks clearly. Wich cloaks were concrete checkered, wich time wich evidence, wich celtic area?
About the tartan origins we had debate in forum livinghistory.ie.
Does the medievale "tartan" patterns were the same as the tartans today? I think not.
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