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Just starting- C3rd Roman
#16
I don't want to derail the thread, but that sounds logical to me. It took something radical to break the endless cycle of civil war and assassinations of the 3rd century. I wonder, about the ridge and spangenhelms ... if they were already in use with various eastern 'auxiliary' cohorts, and integrated from them. Or introduced directly from the enemy, the Parthians.
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
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#17
Thank you very much for the answer, Paul!
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[Image: regnumhesperium.png]
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#18
Quote:this might be the right place to ask if there is a early/mid 3rd century alternative to the big, bulky Roman helmets of this era (like Buch/Nieberbieber/Heddernheim).

It's long been my belief that there was a different model of helmet in use throughout the 3rd century and into the 4th, and perhaps later - it's seen in Roman art of the period, but is unknown in the archaeological record. There have been a number of speculations on RAT over the years about the possible form of this helmet, but without tangible evidence it's not possible to offer any convincing reconstructions. The most characteristic features are a rounded bowl and a brim rising to an inverted V over the brow - I believe this type is also shown on the Dura Europos wall paintings and the Arch of Constantine (where in profile it rather resembles a fisherman's sou'wester!)

Some earlier examples from the imagebase:

[img size=280x348]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/imagebase/FirstnameAB/lg_Aeliusseptimus.jpg[/img]

[img size=250x400]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/imagebase/FirstnameAB/lg_Aresd2.jpg[/img]

- Nathan
Nathan Ross
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#19
Quote: When you have need of money you look elsewhere. I am thinking that this situation lead to a change in Roman production of arms and armour. The ridge helmets could, being produced in small parts that were assembled later, represent a much cheaper helmet that the Imperial Gallic types which were produced by one smith over a longer period of time.
It would have been a gradual process allowing the Augst helmet to date to the 280s without a need for a total introduction across the Empire.

This is very plausible and generally seen in other periods of exhausting wars as well. I would add lack of resources and time to the money-problem. It can be tricky to draw parallels, but I recall the German and Soviet armies in WW II. Towards the end of the war the beautiful and protective but very elaborate designs of both armies equipments evolved to much simpler and less protective designs.

By the way; I also love the helmet from Theilenhofen; in my opinion it is the best infantry-helmet ever designed in the empire. It is plain, but very protective and esthetically pleasing.
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#20
Quote:I wonder, about the ridge and spangenhelms ... if they were already in use with various eastern 'auxiliary' cohorts, and integrated from them. Or introduced directly from the enemy, the Parthians.
I don't think so. The Parthians used helmets similar to some late Sassanian helmet, but (I'm not sure) I don't think they used the ridge helmet. But even if they did, the Romans already knew the spangenhelmet, which was of Danubian origin and long known from eg the sarmatians. These helmets were also of segmented design, and from the 5th century onwards they seem to have won out over the ridge helmet design. Yet this helmet was not in use in the Roman army during the 3rd or 4th century. I therefore think that the Romans copied the Persian helmets for a reason, and only later decided that the (even more simplified) spangenhelm was better.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#21
one question raised by a mate- were the 'SPOR' tatoos ever used (as in the Gladiator film) my thought was NO! but thought I'd check.
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#22
Quote:one question raised by a mate- were the 'SPOR' tatoos ever used (as in the Gladiator film) my thought was NO! but thought I'd check.

This has been discussed here before and if I remember correctly, there is no evidence whatsoever to support this...
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
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#23
We know the legioaries recieved a tattoo of some sort, but what it was is open to speculation, until a well preserved Legionary is pulled from a peat bog, or found frozen in the Alps.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#24
Quote:
Mithras post=295349 Wrote:I wonder, about the ridge and spangenhelms ... if they were already in use with various eastern 'auxiliary' cohorts, and integrated from them. Or introduced directly from the enemy, the Parthians.
I don't think so. The Parthians used helmets similar to some late Sassanian helmet, but (I'm not sure) I don't think they used the ridge helmet. But even if they did, the Romans already knew the spangenhelmet, which was of Danubian origin and long known from eg the sarmatians. These helmets were also of segmented design, and from the 5th century onwards they seem to have won out over the ridge helmet design. Yet this helmet was not in use in the Roman army during the 3rd or 4th century. I therefore think that the Romans copied the Persian helmets for a reason, and only later decided that the (even more simplified) spangenhelm was better.

Did I say Parthians? I meant Persians ... :oops:
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
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#25
One and the same....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#26
Quote:It's long been my belief that there was a different model of helmet in use throughout the 3rd century ... The most characteristic features are a rounded bowl and a brim rising to an inverted V over the brow - I believe this type is also shown on the Dura Europos wall paintings and the Arch of Constantine (where in profile it rather resembles a fisherman's sou'wester!)

[img size=250x400]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/imagebase/FirstnameAB/lg_Aresd2.jpg[/img]
- Nathan

I've not read those earlier threads. When I see that inverted 'V' I always imagined the sculptor was trying to depict the huge triangular brow guards of the Heddernheim/Buch/Niedernmormter helmets:

[Image: AH6310N.JPG]
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
Reply
#27
Hmmm, I don't know....too different I think!
Seems to be a relation to some of the later ridge helms but not, if you know what I mean?
Reminds me of something, not sure what though....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#28
Quote:this might be the right place to ask if there is a early/mid 3rd century alternative to the big, bulky Roman helmets of this era (like Buch/Nieberbieber/Heddernheim). I especially dislike the huge neck guard. Is a Spangenhelm already in use with the Roman army e.g.?

The conical helmet found in a 2nd/3rd century context in Breda, Netherlands:

http://www.ancient-warfare.org/rat.html?...&id=188520

was of segmental construction.
Regards,


Jens Horstkotte
Munich, Germany
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#29
I am not convinced that there was such a radical change in equipment between the mid third century AD and the early fourth century AD, when compared with other periods and I think too much is read into the adoption of new helmet and belt type. Certainly, as Robert says, there will have been reasons for the adoption of ridge helms, but the difference between the soldiers of both ends of this spectrum is surely no more radical than the difference between the soldiers at either end of a similar length period in earlier periods.
If you were to take an example of a soldier of the period of the invasion of Britain in AD43 and contrast him with a soldier of fifty years later, you would see different sword and scabbard types, different belt styles, probably different helmet styles and possibly different footwear styles. Similarly if you were to contrast a soldier of the mid second century AD with another of fifty years later, you would see differences in sword and scabbard furniture, helmets, belts and clothing too. The differences seen in these two examples would be no more but no less radical than the differences between soldiers of the mid third and early fourth centuries.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

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#30
Quote:I am not convinced that there was such a radical change in equipment between the mid third century AD and the early fourth century AD, when compared with other periods...

Certainly we should be sceptical of reading too much into a period with such little physical evidence remaining. But I think the helmet and belt change is a bit more obvious - earlier helmets, from the Gallic Agen/Port styles through the Imperial Gallic and Italic right up to the Niederbieber (which we could best see as the final developed form) show a process of steady evolution. Again, with limited evidence this evolution could just be our modern shaping of what was in fact a far more complex pattern. But the later helmets - Intercisa and Berkasova types - still do not appear to have evolved from these earlier patterns, but to have sprung from some new, perhaps outside source.

Similarly with the belt - the wide belt of the 4th century is quite a different item to the earlier balteus. Different suspension method, different fittings, different look altogether. Again, there seems to be some other influence coming in here, from outside the previous family of equipment evolution.

Quote:If you were to take an example of a soldier of the period of the invasion of Britain in AD43 and contrast him with a soldier of fifty years later, you would see different sword and scabbard types, different belt styles, probably different helmet styles and possibly different footwear styles. Similarly if you were to contrast a soldier of the mid second century AD with another of fifty years later...

Yes, there's an assumption of a lack of change in the appearance of Roman soldiers between about 50 and 200 AD that needs challenging, and is, I think, being challenged by reenactors and historians. All the same, though, that change still shows signs of evolution rather than revolution - from swords to footwear, it's possible to trace the changes. Later styles (in some respects at least) show less of a continuation.

All this could be merely a function of a lack of evidence for the period, especially the later 3rd century. With more to inform us, we might be able to see more clearly a slow progression of form and function, even a continuity. The discovery of the late 3rd century segmentata fragments at Leon should warn us against too easy an assumption of total change.

Having said that, and strictly out of interest, just how much genuine difference would there be between a legionary of AD43 and one of AD93?

- Nathan
Nathan Ross
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