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Tactics: Employment of the Gladius
#16
I consider myself in shape...and I have pretty strong shoulders. But even with my 2-ply scutum I get tired quickly, and tend to hold it closer to my body as combat goes on.

The luxury of stabbing without extending beyond the shield only can happen if the enemy's body is within a blade length of your scutum. So accepting a charge of the enemy, or conversley charging at the enemy will allow this to happen. When the two lines however are kind of standing statically 5-10 feet (2-4 meters or so) apart, then yeah, the legionary gladius isn't much help.

I think the one thing I think is hard to simulate is the "press of bodies". Speaking more so on the enemy side...whether in ranks or not, the rear echelons are going to be pushing forward towards the legions, regardless of what is happening to their friends in the front ranks. This gives advantage to the legions tactics and weaponry.

When in a lull or static stand off, this would be where the missile weapons could play a role, as well as the cavalry. Problem is at Lafe and Castra Aestiva we don't really have cavalry, and a very limited number of missile troops.

That really is the problem as I see it. Trying to experiment using Roman tactics or descriptions of battles with only 30-40 people per side. If we had a full century with an equal amount of enemy, AND support services like cavalry and missile I would think we could better figure things out.

As it stands our experiments are somewhat handicapped for this reason. But it is fun, it just leaves a lot to wonder about.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#17
The Annals By Tacitus Book II
For the huge shields and unwieldly lances of the barbarians cannot, amid trunks of trees and brushwood that springs from the ground, be so well managed as our javelins and swords and closefitting armour. Shower your blows thickly; strike at the face with your swords' points. The German has neither cuirass nor helmet; even his shield is not strengthened with leather or steel, but is of osiers woven together or of thin and painted board. If their first line is armed with spears, the rest have only weapons hardened by fire or very short.

The Germans were equally brave, but they were beaten by the nature of the fighting and of the weapons, for their vast host in so confined a space could neither thrust out nor recover their immense lances, or avail themselves of their nimble movements and lithe frames, forced as they were to a close engagement. Our soldiers, on the other hand, with their shields pressed to their breasts, and their hands grasping their sword-hilts, struck at the huge limbs and exposed faces of the barbarians, cutting a passage through the slaughtered enemy
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
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#18
Some great posts being made here.

Perhaps a couple of other things to consider.

Sources indicate that each legionaire had a six foot frontage or "box" assigned to them. While they were fundamentally trained to remain behind their shields and stab this would give some scope for more open sword play.

However this needs to be balanced against the fact that the legionaire in the front rank could actually cycle back through the ranks if the opportunity arose, in order to take a breather. Apparently experienced legionaires could do this quite seamlessly.

Also it seems that middle imperial legionairres were often trained to thrust their swords to thier right, which qould be the exposed sight of a right handed enemey.
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#19
Quote:I think it likely that training included individual combat for the occasions when that became necessary (thinking of the standard bearer defending the standard, the Centurion in the Temple etc) but that the ideal was the formation grinding over the enemy. We do have records of Legionaries receiving training in other areas Bow. Sling, rock throwing,riding for when those skills were needed.
Maybe, but the descriptions of Roman infantry training (Vegetius 1, Polybius 6 and 10.20, etc.) I've read emphasize individual weapons training and drill. Can anyone even remember a source for infantry having mock battles with wasters? I think John Lendon has a point that we moderns tend to emphasize Roman discipline and play down impulsive heroism or savagery more than the sources allow (just like we play up dense formations rather than Polybius' open order).
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#20
Quote:Also it seems that middle imperial legionairres were often trained to thrust their swords to thier right, which qould be the exposed sight of a right handed enemey.

This what we call crosstriking, and use a lot in a line fight.

Most people, being righthanded, this is the unshielded side of a person.
But hard to reach with a Gladius when the opponent stands, defensive, with his shield (left)foot forward.
His unshielded side can be reached when the opponent steps forward with his weapon (right) foot to launch an attack himself.
Regards

Garrelt
-----------------------------------------------------
Living History Group Teuxandrii
Taberna Germanica
Numerus I Exploratores Teuxandrii (Pedites et Equites)
Ludus Gladiatorii Gunsula
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#21
In order for the legionary to start useing the Gladius he first has to get rid of his Pilum and to try to imagine just how you get 160 men to throw their pilum all at the same time is to consider why we have a Centurian called the Primus Prior, for the Romans fought as a Maniple he does not even give the order to do so but he throws first and with all the guys in the front two ranks watching this they all throw when he does.
Then the second rank step into the two metre gaps of the front rank and then draw the Gladius as the enemy come down the last 20 yards at them,then with a combined wall of wood at the enemy like a fort wall the troops just start to jab out through the side of the shield wall pushing as they go. Then the two ends of the line start to swing inwards and do not close the ring but allow the enemy to run out when they realise they are getting the worst of it.
This is the time that the Cavalry come into play and cut them down on the run, but I think all this swinging of the gladius would only be done if you got caught out in open ground.
If we consider Storming Norman in 1991 he had studied the Romans and used just such tactics burning their asses as they go.
Then to consider greeves and arm prtection we have remenber Dacia.
Brian Stobbs
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#22
If a legionary fills in the two meter gap, is there enough room for effective stabbing and shield movement? Etc... and the swords used, different styles etc from different time periods, changed because of the uses of different tactics?

Sam
Samuel J.
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#23
Quote:
jkaler48 post=294980 Wrote:I think it likely that training included individual combat for the occasions when that became necessary (thinking of the standard bearer defending the standard, the Centurion in the Temple etc) but that the ideal was the formation grinding over the enemy. We do have records of Legionaries receiving training in other areas Bow. Sling, rock throwing,riding for when those skills were needed.
Maybe, but the descriptions of Roman infantry training (Vegetius 1, Polybius 6 and 10.20, etc.) I've read emphasize individual weapons training and drill. Can anyone even remember a source for infantry having mock battles with wasters? I think John Lendon has a point that we moderns tend to emphasize Roman discipline and play down impulsive heroism or savagery more than the sources allow (just like we play up dense formations rather than Polybius' open order).

Philip Rance argues that in Polybius (10.20) and Livy (26.51), the training is not individual but it is a large scale tactical training, “an army divided into two battles lines, one force manoeuvring and using close quarter weaponry, while the other fires projectiles at it, the roles being subsequently reversed”(p.264)

The Literary and Historical Tradition of Mock Battles in the Roman and Early Byzantine Army. Philip Rance. Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies.

http://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/view/2071

It is true that in some descriptions Vegetius emphasizes individual training but in other discusses the importance of group training and maneuvers (Veg. 1.26; 3.9).

David S.
David Sierra.
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#24
Getting back to vambraces the Manica,

More armor would definitely come in handy during an extended melee when you can't possibly pay attention to every single attack, so maybe the focus for the Romans wasn't long periods of close-quarters combat as we like to imagine it. For instance, the Roman soldier dashes forward using his shield aggressively and delivers a couple of well-aimed strikes with his sword before breaking off to regain his breath.

Another idea could be simply that spears and projectiles would have trouble getting a direct hit on an exposed a limb while right-handed swords could easily be kept away with the shield. This might explain the problems they had with the long, two-handed falx.
Henry O.
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#25
When the Pilum throw is made it could well have been a 160 release of these at exactly the same instant with a manipule in two rows staggered at two metre intervals, this mass throw would divest many of the front row enemy of their shields if not also kill some which is the shock tactic.
Then with two steps or what is known as a Miles pasus the second row of troops fill the gap, however there is no need for shield swinging other than the action of holding the curved scutum close to the body and just rotate at each stab no wild swinging needed whatever just a steady push stab push stab.
Brian Stobbs
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#26
Quote:Some great posts being made here.

Perhaps a couple of other things to consider.

Sources indicate that each legionaire had a six foot frontage or "box" assigned to them. While they were fundamentally trained to remain behind their shields and stab this would give some scope for more open sword play.

However this needs to be balanced against the fact that the legionaire in the front rank could actually cycle back through the ranks if the opportunity arose, in order to take a breather. Apparently experienced legionaires could do this quite seamlessly.

Also it seems that middle imperial legionairres were often trained to thrust their swords to thier right, which qould be the exposed sight of a right handed enemey.

If I'm not mistaken, this happens a few times in Simon Scarrow's books, with tired legionaries moving back and being replaced by ones in the second line. I know it's fiction but I think he gives a very accurate idea of the stabbing power of the gladius, when used with the scutum, by a well trained line of soldiers - that attack to the sides also, when needed to defend an opening or attack a more powerful opponent.

I also get the idea that it's not a perfect line, like synchronized swimmers Big Grin, but a group of people that know perfectly what to do and how to react in battle, with the training they receive. Even then the lines are broken, they seem to know their strength lies in their actions as a group, more than individual decisions.

Hope no one is offended by the fact I mentioned a fiction author, when everyone is bringing historians and citations to the topic but his books are what brought back my dormant passion for the subject and from what I read, he's usually accurate with his details.
André
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#27
I hear alot about the thrust of the gladius, down low, into the belly. The wall of shields creating an impenetrable barrier, the gladii thrusting forward, lightning strikes. Invincibility, Roman prowess. I've told the public the same, but its very idealized. Great aganst straw targets... but not against lots of different types of enemy.

I can imagine German warriors, forming a simple shield wall of oval boards, with spears. Try stabbing with the gladius then ... its a shield... you need to get over it or around it.

In fiction, ROME HBO and some Discovery dcumentaries it seems the gladius is all powerful, not considering the basic fact that these German warriors (or whoever) will be protecting themselves from the stab with their shield, ready to block that killer blow.

[rant over] ;-)
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
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#28
Funny how they managed to build an empire with it, nevertheless.. Wink
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#29
2 square meters is a lot of room to cover with an average length Gladius.
In such a square there is even room to fight with a spear.
Don't have the reference with me right now, but Pila have been used as stabbing weapons in the same way as a "normal" spear.

I'm just curious.
How many of you Legionairs and Auxillia, excluding those who also double as Gladiator, have ever fought in a duel with a wooden or steel Gladius?
Regards

Garrelt
-----------------------------------------------------
Living History Group Teuxandrii
Taberna Germanica
Numerus I Exploratores Teuxandrii (Pedites et Equites)
Ludus Gladiatorii Gunsula
Jomsborg Elag Hrafntrae
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#30
I can get past a spear pretty easily. I simply move it out of the way with my scutum. And since human beings run/dash forward faster than we can do so backwards, it isn't hard to close the distance between a shield bearing celt/germanic. Then I stab the bejeebus out of them. Panic sets in once they realize their spear is useless.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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