Well advanced British \"Town\" predating Romans?

[kazeryu]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14555449

This article describes findings suggesting a planned city existed at Calleva Atrebatum prior to Roman occupation, with imported olive oil, garum, and wine. Has any of this been published in more detail?

[Robert Vermaat]

The link does not work?

[Titus Marius Secundus]

yes it does, very interesting!

[Robert Vermaat]

Strange, noqw it does. Yes, very interesting. But once more, journalists create the 'straw man' by suggesting that we all had the notion of the pre-Roman Celts being un-civilised ("The Romans are often credited with bringing civilisation to Britain - including town planning"). A few months ago it was the British not having any roads, now it's the British unable to build towns.

Of course they did. NOT of course on the scale of the Romans later, but then that's not what is claimed: "excavations have shown evidence of an Iron Age town built on a grid and signs inhabitants had access to imported wine and olive oil". So the put up houses in neat rows along a road, and drank wine and used olive oil. Big deal.

What Fulford does not claim, of course, is that the British actually built their town in one go, after a plan, as the Romans did with almost all their newly founded towns. He just says that they built on a grid. And that, of course, is a big difference between an orderly town and a planned town.

[kazeryu]

I thought most of history argued that towns (or at least cities?) were not very orderly AT ALL unless planned that way.

Typically wouldn't they be more like an accretion around various points of interest, like a crossroads/mill/worship structure? Buildings of varying size (depending on size of family and wealth) as new structures are added and old ones demolished over the years doesn't typically result in grid layouts, does it?

[Nathan Ross]

Is this article implying that the Britons decided to start building gridded towns, drinking wine and using olive oil and garum entirely independently of their continental neighbours in Gaul, dominated by Rome for over a century? :-?

In fact, these findings would appear to be further evidence of Romanisation in Britain prior to the Claudian invasion, rather than of the native genius of the Britons themselves...

[Titus Marius Secundus]

Yes Nathan I agree with your point. Obviously in history all we can do is guess :-| First I would like to know how the archaeologists know if there was olive oil used. Secondly, this means that there was trade between the Romans and Britons. I don't know if that is a "no duh" thing, but also means there were some good relations going. The Britons were obviously influenced by the Roman way of life, knowing that building a straight wall is smarter and drinking wine improves night life :wink: , so it seems very wrong to make these Britons sound like they're the babies suckling on the Roman's bottle. Surely they had brains that could add together if you can't beat them, join them. Organized buildings is an effective method, and seems naturally right to do so. People don't want to walk a hundred yards to the closest water source because they risk drinking it all before they get back home. Anyway, it's common sense which even barbarians had...

Sam

[kazeryu]

Is this article implying that the Britons decided to start building gridded towns, drinking wine and using olive oil and garum entirely independently of their continental neighbours in Gaul, dominated by Rome for over a century? :-?

In fact, these findings would appear to be further evidence of Romanisation in Britain prior to the Claudian invasion, rather than of the native genius of the Britons themselves...

I was wondering about your latter statement myself, but I didn't have the knowledge in your former statement to back it up so I kept quiet... :oops:

[Nathan Ross]

it seems very wrong to make these Britons sound like they're the babies suckling on the Roman's bottle... it's common sense which even barbarians had...

Sure, but the Britons had an effective and evolved culture of their own going back for generations. If we suddenly see evidence of new styles appearing, it means that somebody was keeping an eye on what was happening across the Channel...

We know that Rome had trade and political links with various tribal states in southeast Britain - the Claudian invasion was supposedly intended to sort out a succession dispute. States friendly to Rome will have had access to the best that Rome could provide, and the elites of any society have always been keen to flaunt their connections by conspicuous display. This doesn't necessarily make them toadies or cultural traitors (although some at the time may have seen it that way!).

A similar thing happened, for example, in 18th-century India, where you find ornamental gardens laid out by native princes, and artillery forts built on the new French model by imported European engineers, a century and more before British domination.

I wouldn't be surprised, then, if Calleva was indeed a purpose-built tribal capital, constructed on the Roman model by the local ruler as a symbol of prestige, perhaps even using Roman architects and engineers brought from the continent.

As an aside, there is, I believe, evidence of 'Roman' arms and armour from British burial sites around St Albans, dating to before the invasion. This might just be evidence of a flourishing arms trade, but might also suggest that Rome was supplying her allies in Britain with military equipment, rather in the way that certain states today give surplus military gear to friendly nations overseas...

[Epictetus]

It doesn't seem to me the article is saying one way or the other how advanced town planning predated the Romans. It looks to me like they are just explaining that the Britons did so.

We know that there was extensive trade contacts prior to Roman subjugation, so it is no surprise that the Britons could be influenced by Roman urban planning. Of course, Roman urban planning originally came from the East during the 'Orientalising' phase, so we know the transmission happened.

The actual grid lay-out is interesting, though. Could the Britons have planned this town beforehand, perhaps similar to the ancient 'sacred spring' ritual, where a portion of the population of an existing town migrates to found a new town? Or could it have been a disaster of some sort, like a massive fire, and the survivors decided to rebuild their town on a grid?

[Carus Andiae]

First I would like to know how the archaeologists know if there was olive oil used.

Not sure, but I think I'm right in saying that there were certain types of amphorae associated with different products (wine, oil, garum etc) and that some have been found stamped with the contents. Finding remains of those amidst the pre-Roman layer seems a possibility. Would be interesting to know, though.

But it does seem a fairly typical (over?)dramatised media report of a 'revelation' that isn't really news at all - though to be fair it might come as a shock to Joe Public (rather than people who study the period, which to a greater or lesser extent presumably covers most people in RAT), and I must admit a gridded town is a bit of a surprise for me.

[Medicus matt]

Surely it's no surprise that a town that was home to the three sons of Commius (one of whom may even have been to Rome as a youth), all of whom seem to have looked to Rome as an inspiration and the Emperor as an ally (if not an overlord) might have been redesigned on a Roman pattern two or three generations before the Claudian invasion?
If it was going to be anywhere, it was going to be at Calleva.