Chester Fort Plans and Progress

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Ross,

Access to walls/high places: A sentry at the top of the wall, a legionary polishing his gear (near the stairs), a pair of labourers 'taking a break' (near the stairs), etc.
finance: This is a major issue for every new tourist attraction. However, the size and nature of the venue means that it may be able to offer some more novel attractions, such as private/semi-private evening dinners/events or a weekend "legionary training" camp once it is established. I admit to being uncertain as to what can be done during the first year or so when it is mostly a fence or two and a big hole in the ground, however. Perhaps a tent camp?
modern demands: A carpark can be hidden behind a berm or palisade, with a smattering of pseudo-roman food stands selling things like sausages on rolled bread, mock beer/real beer, or even that ticklish beverage from across the "Pep Sea".

Good to hear some solutions.

Sentries: that means extra staff. When they built the turris at turris at Fort Vechten
, the original plan was for the Roman re-enactment groups to provide one member who was to ‘guard’ the stairs, handing out leaflets to all visitors about the maximum number of visitors and other safety issues. We flatly refused, as this meant that we were made responsible for the safety of these visitors. In fact, a sign will do the trick as well (Be warned! Enter at your own peril!), although insurance agencies may have other thoughts about that.

Finance: although attractive, this is not by a long run going to generate enough income. You want to cater for the masses, and training weekends/private dinners will perhaps gain you a few dozen at best.

Modern demands: indeed, this can be done. If you can hide this well enough and still manage not to spoil the site, it’s indeed a good plan.


Hi Moi,

Arbeia, in it's limited way, seems to manage quite well and now wins awards for the Council for tourism etc so generates more funding.

Any idea whether the place is at least breaking even? I mean, Xanten would be a very good example, but that’s completely funded by the German government. Archeon seems to be doing OK, but that’s only because they went the way of commercial solutions, as described below.

[Vindex]

I took part in the public enquiry for the Gateway at Arbeia and there were some greater powers involved at that project, and there are greater powers of local government still involved as yet.
I was for the gateway at that time however that is not the original planned building, and it was archaeologists that took everyone involved off to Germany where afterward we have a lot of Xanten influence.
Though it was good to get the thing built I still say yet that the gate would not have been of that type, in fact also in a region of so much limestone there would not have been white rendered buildings such as the barracks nor also a white bathhouse at Segedunum but then when you build in breeze blocks you have to hide them somehow.

But what about the evidence for the white render of the Wall itself? If you're going to render the Wall, a few buildings won't be a problem!!

But I take the breeze block argument too...

Edited to add: I thought the gateway in Libya was the main source for the planning of the Arbeia gateway?? Gariyat???

[Vindex]

Hi Moi,

Arbeia, in it's limited way, seems to manage quite well and now wins awards for the Council for tourism etc so generates more funding.

Any idea whether the place is at least breaking even? I mean, Xanten would be a very good example, but that’s completely funded by the German government. Archeon seems to be doing OK, but that’s only because they went the way of commercial solutions, as described below.

I believe Arbeia is pretty much like Xanten (in more ways than one!) and is propped up by Tyne and Wear Council and used as a venue for non Roman events too.

Segedunum is again slightly different as that has a mining "attraction" as well and the sites are combined these days. I was surprised and delighted that Segedunum had been improved so much from when I dug there (but that was in the late 1980s so one would hope there would be some improvement in 20 odd years).

Perhaps Brian is a better person to ask?

[PhilusEstilius]

I have excavated at both Arbeia and Segedunum but that was way back in the 70s, in fact way back then at Segedunum there was archaeological vandalism carried out on the Principia.
This was where the original flags of the courtyard in the south west corner were ripped up and dumped, then the whole foundation of it was dug out with a JCB then also dumped.
Then it was filled with large stones then small gravel and grassed over to make a visitor park, however with the consolidation the outer wall was taken completely around without any entrance shown at all.
It took me around almost a year to get the local and the archaeological authorites to come back and re-make the north gateway into it.
If we look at the water tank in the western area near the west gate we find it has a fence around it but no cover over it against the rain that comes in and fills it up so no one can see at all what it is, there was also here vandalism carried out when the water filtration system in the south east corner was simply ripped out and dumped.
Therefore when it comes to theme parks I think I have come across a few to be able to know what I am talking about.
There are also things about Arbeia that maybe one should not even mention.

[Titus Marius Secundus]

I have sent you a pm Brian.
And that's really sad :-|

[Vindex]

That is sad, Brian, but I dug at the same places in the 80s and it wasn't quite so "heathen" in the excavation methodology (admittedly my Segedunum excavation was outside the fort walls, looking for the Wall).

[PhilusEstilius]

I'm just thinking if that was the portion of wall where they afterwards built the re-constructed section, for my very good friend Tony Drake worked on that area.
There was if I remember correctly the place where it was discovered that a turf type barrier went south from the wall towards the river, never heard the outcome of that so could it have been a later defence for the vicus.
For just behind and to the south when the factory units were being built in the 70s I found thousands of red tiles in the trenches that the contractors were making just west of the fort for the new building walls, archaeologists said they did not consider them to be Roman but then it was only a glance that they made so who knows.

[PhilusEstilius]

There is another interesting aspect about the water tank I have mentioned for when viewed on a plan of the fort it does not line up in any respect to all the other buildings or features of the fort.
It may also have been a double decker type of tank with a tank above supported on six constructed pillars hence the filtration unit in the south east corner and the outlet at the south west corner that leads to the hospital building.
The water would have poured down from the top tank very fast into the filter of varying size stones and pebbles but then sadly that is now not there to show how it may have functioned
Oh and bye the bye I discovered this water tank before it was even excavated by dowsing, in fact I found also on the top an excelent stylus that I've never yet seen displayed.
There is also that the upper tank went out of use at some time for the two northern pillars were used to create a wall in the middle making two tanks at lower level, what was of interest the tank to the north was full of tremendous quantities of Samiam pottery therefore what might be the date of it.

[Vindex]

I'm just thinking if that was the portion of wall where they afterwards built the re-constructed section, for my very good friend Tony Drake worked on that area.

It's about the right area, yes. It was directly under the area where the inscription was put up sometimes in the 1900s. We found evidence of building scaffold as opposed to wooden/turf structure though.

That's a real shame about the water tanks. What a fascinating thing it would have been to reconstruct. I can;t remember now what the profile of the fort is as it slopes towards the river but it's a fair incline.

What I DO like about Segedumun is the inscription/monument to all the Centurions' names found along the length of the Wall. A bit naff, perhaps, but I liked it!

[Robert]

Salve omnes,

As many may know I am working on a Roman Themepark in the Netherlands. Follow the link in my signature to learn more if you are not familiar with the plans. FYI: Progress has been maddingly slow due to spatial planning obstacles and the inability to find a decent piece of land. Haven't given up hope yet, though, there is possibility we have now been working on for two years which may come to pass. But the business model is sound and we have found a bank who is willing to finance 65 % of the building cost. Now to get the lease of the land sorted out ... and the SP procedures, which in the Netherlands are living hell.

However, my professional occupation is sr. consultant spatial planning & recreation, so I also do concepting and financial feasibility studies as a living. I can assure you a commercial exploitation of a Roman themepark is possible, but it needs to be professionally approached and run. Often as not archaeological themeparks were set up by a bunch of drive enthusiasts focussing on telling a story and having fun, with little head for business affairs. They scrape together enough money to build it (with a zelotic focus on “getting it right”), after which the problems start, as they are very dependant on continues outside/public funding to keep going. I have spoken at length on this with Roeland Paardekoper http://archeo-interface.nl/english/ of EXARC, he totally agrees. There is a world to be won enhancing visitor perception and earning capacity. Chester Fort may benefit from the expertise of EXARC, too. They can also contact me for tips & tricks.

The location is also very important, you need sufficient potential “traffic” in the immediate vicinity, as people (as Robert so rightly pointed out) will only go to a very limited amount of trouble to visit your park.

Archeon, by the way, went bust because they overestimated the amount of visitors grossly, their business model in the starting years was based on 700.000 visitors annually (they achieved 600.000 the first year, which dropped to 350.000 the second, after negative publicity for not really delivering the goods) and they were lured into over-financing by the bank, wanting to gain access to the land “donated” by the municipality, on which they could develop commercial housing. Jack Veltman, the director after the restart (the park having been reduced to a mere 7 hectares (17,30 acres) ), succeeded in using his catering experience to turn the exploitation around and earn more cash, thus saving the park. The original concept of living history was however very much reduced, which is a shame. They do not receive any substantial public funding.

Xanten is a nice park, but very "dead". There is no re-enactment on the premises for almost all of the time. Museum is well worth a visit though, park has some magnificent reconstructions, as many of you will know from your visits over the years. It is heavily funded by the Landesverein and has no interest in making money. This may yet be their demise.

I wish Chester Fort all the best!

[Joe Taylor]

Hello, everyone - first post on this! Just a quick question-any update on this yet? It sounds brilliant -

[Cheyenne]

I agree with you Robert, the chester project would benefit greatly with advice from EXARC. Also Lijre experimental archaeology centre in Denmark?

Paul knows what he is doing business wise, he's not a novice ... i'm not sure how chester city council might be involved however, as they have been notoriously difficult to come round to the idea of 'hands on' living history education in the past.

Flintshire council might be a better option because Flintshire has nothing like an archaeological park which could attract visitors... The nearest thing they have is the Greenfield valley park near Holywell which is dead a lot of the time these days

[Gaius Longius]

Hi All,

Thanks for your interest. This is just to let you know that this project is still full on but at a rather delicate juncture at the moment which gives us little room to provide any details.

Your support is greatly appreciated and as soon as we can more info on how this is progressing will be made available.

Regards,

Gary.

[Squamatus]

Park in The Past Community Interest Company

Press Release: 5th July 2014
“Lord Barry Jones secures land for Roman Fort and Country Park.”
Hanson UK Chief Executive Patrick O’Shea has donated all of the Hanson land holdings at Fagl Lane Quarry, near Hope, Flintshire to Park in The Past Community Interest Company.
Lord Barry Jones, an enthusiastic supporter of the ambitious plans to build a Roman Fort and restored ancient landscape, recently made a written appeal for support to the Hanson UK CEO, with dramatic results.
Paul Harston, Managing Director of Park in The Past said “I could hardly believe it when I heard. Actually I was on a train to Liverpool dressed as a Roman Centurion for a corporate event, so when I started jumping up and down, I don’t think the other passengers could quite believe it either!”
“We have been in protracted negotiations to acquire the land for over 2 years now, and although this gift is dependent on our buying the northern half of the site from a private owner, we are now in a position to close the deal and get on with the real work.”
There has been a great deal of activity going on behind the scenes to enable us to hit the ground running: Our team of professional ecologists from Enfys Ecology have almost completed a full ecological survey of the site, so we can establish exactly what wildlife is already present. We are about to start work on a detailed management plan, for which we have already provisionally awarded the contract.
The first 2 years of operation are going to be the most difficult, as with any start up enterprise. We are launching an appeal for people who want to help make this community project happen to become a “Friend of Park in The Past” and to make a small monthly donation to help cover essential development costs and overheads. This is essential if the project is to survive until it can start generating income from commercial activities. Everyone who subscribes during this early period will gain special status as a “founder friend”, which will entitle them to special concessions in the future. We will be launching our website very soon at www.parkinthepast.org.uk
Hanson UK CEO Patrick O’Shea said: “The project has the potential for considerable educational, economic and community benefits and we are delighted to add our support by donating the land.”

[Vindex]

Gosh - that's a generous donation!