Best weapon against Lorica Segmentata?

[kazeryu]

I seem to recall reading a comment that the thickness and quality of Roman steel plates was actually quite comparable to state-of-the art Renaissance plate...?

[Nurglitch]

I've seen this comment. I consider it unlikely, but even if, the renaissance and heavy baroque armour was heavier and covered greater area of the body than segmentata. Renaissance cuirass designed to stop a musket ball could reach 5-7mm of sloping thickness. And a halberd was primarily meant to allow the infantry to mess up heavy cavalry. You hit the target and something dies. The rider, the horse. If you get it tangled (that's what the hook is for), just pull and the rider comes off the horse.

This guy:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/images/gothic_armour.jpg

was better armoured than a legionary. Really.

[Sean Manning]

The trouble is that we know people had friendly fights in normal armour with weapons that contemporaries just called an "axe" (any two-handed polearm with a point, back spike, and hammer or blade on the front). There is contemporary evidence that an axe blow could kill through armour, but plenty of evidence that this didn't always happen. The preference for hammer heads over blade heads for armoured combat suggests that blades were less effective.

An Augustan scutum is a lot heavier than any staff weapon ... the "what if he blows through my parry" argument is always a worry if the other guy is better, stronger, or has a heavier weapon.

[Sean Manning]

The Subject title basically says it all, but to reiterate what would be the best weapon or weapons to use against lorica segmentata? In case anyone was wondering I am writing a fantasy book wear there are soldiers who wear armor very similar to Lorica Segmentata and I want to know what weapon(s) would have the most damaging affect on this type of armor.

As others have said, pretty much any weapon will work against partial metal armour because trained opponents will aim for the unprotected parts. One handed maces/picks/hammer should be able to do damage through the armour, and two-handed staff weapons might be able to penetrate with a thrust or a swing.

We don't have good data about the penetration of weapon swings (its really hard to be scientific about weapon swings because so much depends on the wielder's skill) or the energy of two-handed thrusts.

[Cerco 21]

There is no "what if" here. Halberds have been developed, tried and tested against heavy armour. Way heavier than lorica segmentata.

There is, mainly because there were never Halberds vs Lorica S.

Neither Katana vs Falcata in real life.

I agree that both a Halberd or a Bec de Corbin would be the best weapons against Lorica, but... theory doesn't make it so.

Halberds were used to defeat very different formations and opponents, much the same as large two handed were used to defeat large pikeman formations.

So could equivalent unit of halberdiers defeat a Cohort? Don't know.

[Nurglitch]

So could equivalent unit of halberdiers defeat a Cohort? Don't know.

No, we don't. But we haven't been asked which formation could defeat a cohort, but which weapon could defeat segmentata. And if a hammer drill can drive through a wall, it can also drive through cardboard.

[Lucanus]

I've seen this comment. I consider it unlikely, but even if, the renaissance and heavy baroque armour was heavier and covered greater area of the body than segmentata. Renaissance cuirass designed to stop a musket ball could reach 5-7mm of sloping thickness. And a halberd was primarily meant to allow the infantry to mess up heavy cavalry. You hit the target and something dies. The rider, the horse. If you get it tangled (that's what the hook is for), just pull and the rider comes off the horse.

This guy:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/images/gothic_armour.jpg

was better armoured than a legionary. Really.

But I'd take the legionary in a foot race. :lol:

[Crispvs]

There is another aspect to segmentata (as well as late mediaeval armours with overlapping plates). As at many points there are two layers of metal for the weapon to have to penetrate, which are able to move in relation to each other. Thus even if the weapon penetrates the outer layer, much of its penetrative force is dissipated by the movement this will create in the second layer. This is a similar principle to that used in the 'dragon's tooth' armour which is presently beginning to enter service with modern armies.
We found this when we shot at a set of segmentata with a scorpion a few years ago. The curved plates caused several of the bolts to deflect off the armour but those that penetrated either made it through the outer layer of steel but merely scratched the inner layer or penetrated the outer layer well enough to get through the inner layer but did so by little more than a quarter inch. Thus with a decent subarmalis under it, it would protect the wearer from most blows. There was also a good deal of deformation of the plates in our test but considering that we were shooting over a roughly fifty yard range with a draw weight of around 600psi I doubt that any hand held weapon would be able to strike with comparable force, so the penetration and deformation caused might well be far less than might be expected.

Crispvs

[kazeryu]

This guy:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/images/gothic_armour.jpg

was better armoured than a legionary. Really.

That's silly and beside the point - of course a full set of head to toe plate with mail gussets provides more protection. The question is how does the breastplate, fauld, and spaulders compare against a segmentata? (but that is also straying away from the opening question...)

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Cannon and the .50 cal.

M.VIB.M.

[Cerco 21]

So could equivalent unit of halberdiers defeat a Cohort? Don't know.

No, we don't. But we haven't been asked which formation could defeat a cohort, but which weapon could defeat segmentata. And if a hammer drill can drive through a wall, it can also drive through cardboard.

Right, but as Marcus points out, maybe it should be , which Lorica S contemporary weapon could defeat it... mile:

[Gaius Colletti]

There is no "what if" here. Halberds have been developed, tried and tested against heavy armour. Way heavier than lorica segmentata.

I don't suppose you have a link to such an experiment (I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm genuinely interested) I was not aware that a haleberd was that that effective against armor. Unless you used the hook to grab on to the armor, the problem with "pick" weapons that I have seen is that you need a massive thrust to penetrate the armor, and then the tip only penetrates maybe an inch, and then is jammed in the armor

[Dan Howard]

Cannon and the .50 cal.

This is just as valid a response as the halberd since the Romans faced neither on the battlefield.

[Gaius Colletti]

Do we all agree that during the Roman Empire, there was no "segmentata" bashing weapon that we know of, with the exception of possibly some sort of great axe or a war hammer? Although the legionary would have to be pretty stupid not to be able to dodge a few swings from a large 2 handed weapon, and be able to get good thrust in his opponent, as both weapons require 2 hands, and a full force swing (which is stupid obvious to spot) to wield them effectively enough against segmentata

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

This is just as valid a response as the halberd since the Romans faced neither on the battlefield.

Then ask the proper question.

M.VIB.M.