Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Brass work for Gladius in process.
#31
Looks good! I failed so hard at making my own gladius/ scabbard, so it's good to see someone who does pull it off. Altough my attempt was at a stage in where my experience was next to zero (and i didn't know about RAT :razz: )
Reply
#32
It's looking very good so far - well done.

For the rivet holes, as I said, punching is MUCH easier than drilling through the brass and is what the Romans themselves would have done. If I want to punch a hole through brass plate I place the plate on a piece of wood rather than a piece of metal. I use pine as it is soft and is crushed by the punch at the same time as supporting the rest of the plate.

It would have been easier to punch most of the holes you needed before you bent the plate but it should still not be too hard. As a suggestion, you could punch the holes through the bracing piece first and then, placing the prace onto the gutters of the locket plate (supporting them or course) lightly punch through these holes to indicate the correct places to punch through the top of the gutters (the edges of the plate which you have already bet around). Then punch through the gutters. Doing it this way will ensure that the holes line up with each other properly.

The holes at the bottom for the upper cross hanger need to be approached somewhat differently. Punch holes through the front of the bottoms of the gutters (as shown in the pictures in my article). Once you have done this, put the plate in place on the scabbard body and drill (yes, I do recommend drilling at this point) through the holes you have made and through the wood and leather of the scabbard body (make sure you aim for the drill to hit the back of the gutter in each case). Once I had done this, I pushed a pair of nails through the holes in the plate and scabbard body and tapped them with a hammer to show where to punch through the plate. I then removed the plate from the scabbard body and punched through it at the points indicated.

Next you need to do the cross hanger. If you have not done so already, do a mock up first in card from a cereal box or similar. This should be wrapped around the sheath, beginning at the back of one gutter. Bring it around to the front, allowing enough length to allow for the attachment of the suspension ring and then continue it across the front of the scabbard and around to the back to overlap its other end, again leaving enough length for the other suspension ring. Look at pictures of actual ones to help you get the length right. Make some sort of mark on the card mock-up to show where the holes in the fronts of the gutters are.

Next you need to make the cross hanger itself, using the mock-up as a guide. Make sure you do not emboss the points you intend to rivet through, as these will need to be fairly flat. Emboss the area between these points. You might want to make the first pair of holes before you do the embossing - it's up to you. To make the holes, place the appropriate part of the cross hanger over the appropriate part of the front of the scabbard. It might help to tape it in place. Turn the scabbard over and as before, insert nails through the scabbard and tap them with a medium pressure with a hammer to mark the points for the holes onto the cross hanger. Take the cross hanger off the scabbard and punch the holes through it.

For bending the cross hanger, have a look at how I did it and try to do it the same way. Once you have bent it to the correct shape, put it onto the scabbard body again and tap the nails through again to mark the points to punch through the back of the cross hanger. Take the cross hanger off again and punch the rear pair of holes. You will need to put another hole through the end which overlaps as well. By now, you will have made all the holes you need.

These instructions may seem long winded and time consuming, but you will need to do it right in order to get it right. There aren't really any shortcuts.

Make the lower cross hanger in the same way.

Make sure you do not attach the cross hangers properly until you have inserted the suspension rings.

Sorry to have turned this into such a long post, but I hope it helps.


Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#33
I very much like the way that Crispvs has been most helpfull with all his instructions,however I don't wish to appear over critical with my point of view on the brasswork. What you have done with the brasswork is very good work indeed, but then it looks too modern where you have been doing the measurements for the decoration.
Things look so much more authentic if one does the decoration with free hand drawing as opposed to precise position of everything, lots of little inacruracies help to make things so much better which I have found over the years that I have made all kinds of armour and weaponry.
Apart from all that it's looking good believe me.
Brian Stobbs
Reply
#34
Hey Richard! I see...I'm sure it wasn't a disaster. Not having RAT really means something.
I would be able to use the tools and all...but I wouldn't know how to historically make it. The guys ( Crispvs) here are extremely helpful with all these little details! I want others to learn from it all. Maybe re try making a scabbard....or even the whole sword itself! I'd be more than happy to help you, as I made mine and know some tips ( not historical ) but look historical and have benefits compared to making it 100% accurate. ( I'll be honest guys....my handle is made from thick sheets of wood to prevent cracking from spreading...if any!!! ) You may already know, but there is a blog going on about making a segmentata! An update was posted yesterday. I am almost done drawing full sized diagrams onto paper, ( will copy to cardboard and then metal) which I got from Legio XX's site. If you just want plain old simple measurements with pics I'd be more than happy to help you with that too!!!! Confusedmile:

Thanks Philus,
I appreciate your remark as it is helpful, I agree with you completely. I didn't really do precise measurment... The semi punched/filed angle hole, top left is out,.....and the dots on the top right aren't perfect, nor is the line. The center punched hole isn't exact. I think a Roman metal smith would use something to draw out a rough guide, or he would be very good at being quite precise....so I think it's got enough bad's to equal a good no? ...and yes I believe you Wink Thanks again, anymore remarks are welcome Smile
As for you Crispvs!!! It will take me tomorrow to digest the information. Will work on it very soon, and will have updates in a few days maybe...not sure. Confusedmile: I'm grateful you have taken the time to help, thanks a lot! :lol:
Samuel J.
Reply
#35
I think it's a good thing where I have come across so many re-enactors who have made a piece of their own equipment, it helps to give people some good ideas about metal and just how things are done and they all have this great love of what they have achieved.
Brian Stobbs
Reply
#36
OK I have some questions that my dad has given me reason to ask. Riveting the plate on ( If I do, I'll probably use a drill...with the plate secured etc, drill a straight hole for the rivet.. through plates and wood,no problemo) . But if I rivet it, it will be on...forever...so, in a years time when the brass starts to fade and get brown and black, it's cleaning time!
Back to a solution or the waxing wheel....With all the gaps in the brass, and considering the leather, both would suffer from polishing. Wax and if used, solution, will get in all the gaps UNDER the brass etc...and the leather will start to wear and get yucky. My dad has suggested I use jewelers screws or nails that can be tapped back out in order to disassemble and assemble when it comes to cleaning time, or repairs. I think this is fairly a good idea, except it's not " historically accurate." At the same time, I think it's worth it when it means the looks and condition of the sword being ruined too, I should brief you guys :oops:

Another last question concerning construction. Can I use the brass sheet I have for the cross hangers? Should I fold it over to double it's thickness and strength? Or just go buy another thicker plate...And, is there an easy way to emboss it? or would a flat cross hanger look bad? ...formers seem a little, considering :-?
Sam
Samuel J.
Reply
#37
It is true that the brass will tarnish as time goes by. After all, that is what brass does and it must have applied to Roman brass as well. There is plenty of evidence for the Romans tinning brass, which would largely stop it from tarnishing, but not all Roman brass was tinned. If tarnished brass bothered the Romans (and it may not have bothered too much to the common soldier - we just don't know) they presumably had a way of dealing with the issue. Those of us in the present day who like to be able to polish our brasswork from time to time use Brasso.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasso

If you don't want to get Brasso on the leather of your scabbard, just be careful how you apply it. If you can only get the liquid form of it, never pour it directly onto the item you want to polish, as it can run anywhere. Put a folded polishing cloth over the mouth of the bottle, hold it there securely and upturn the bottle for a moment. This should impregnate the cloth with enough Brasso to begin to polish. Apply it by rubbing the cloth back and forth across the brass you want to polish, taking care not to rub it over any of the leather. You will probably have to replenish the Brasso on the cloth from time to time in order to polish all of your brasswork. The Brasso will leave a dirty residue on the brass. You will want to have some tissues on hand to rub the residue off afterwards and buff it up to a good shine.

For the cross hangers, I used a slightly heavier weight of brass, as they have to be weight bearing, but the 0.016 may still be alright for this task. Brian, as an experienced armourer, might be able to give better advice on this.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#38
I used sifted wood ashes and a wet cloth to AMAZING success with brass that had begun to turn dull and brownish. Nearly nothing left on the surface after a wipe with a clean damp cloth. I think it's something upwards of a thousand grit abrasive. Very glad I tried it. It works better than anything I've used in the commercial chemical department.

Take ashes from a fire, sift them through a wire screen tea strainer, wet a cloth, dab it on the ashes, rub on the brass. You'll be astonished how well it works. Takes rust and the blackish discoloration off steel, too. Put a jar of wood ashes in your kit bag, and you'll be glad you did.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#39
That's very interesting - thank you very much David! :grin:

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#40
Ahhah! OK I'll 99% go for rivets. They are authentic and that's what we want eh! I won't touch it with dirty hands, sweaty etc, and I don't mind it going dull. If it needs a clean I'll just have to be careful! Plus I'll oil it with olive oil or some meat fat. I'm sure the Romans used either those for all their equipment to prevent rust, why not the brass Tongue Thanks, I'll try and get working on it now :-)

So my friend Brian, may I have your opinion about cross hangers? I have .016 th brass sheet. I think I'll make simple flat, or single grove cross hangers. Of course embossing adds to strength, but it's some work doing those ultra groovy lines Cool , I think most cross hangers would have been rather simplistic :!: anyway to add to strength, would it be OK to fold the brass over to thicken it? Carefully of course...

Demetrius...that's interesting and will likely be the first method I'll try!
Thank yall for the time :lol:
Sam
Samuel J.
Reply
#41
Quote:That's very interesting - thank you very much David!
Try it: you'll like it. And seems like just about every camp has a fire somewhere ergo a supply of ashes. I tried it once, and now I'm a true believer.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#42
I guess I'm a bit late, but I wanted to point out that rivets aren't truly permanent, just very, very annoying to remove without scratching anything nearby.
--------
Ross

[url="http://galeforcearmoury.blogspot.com"] Working on a segmentata.[/url]
Reply
#43
hahahahahahahhahahahahahah aww man, that's awesome! Um, yeah, no you're fine! Lets see....I'm sure going for rivets, any idea on cross braces? and how's the segmentata going ? I'm making a cardboard one, just about to finish the upper two sections. Shoulders, chest, and working on back. I see it's a bit hard. I'm taking it in steps to break down the work, and making the cardboard one, psh, the real one will be so much easier! Tongue I mean, I would have worked out the fitting size, and brought the plates to full scale.. I'm getting an idea of the leather straps and not go wrong where you did, I'm using tape. now, if you search lorica segmentata on google images, after so many pics down you'll see the inside on a couple! Give you some ideas. I'mm make a quick topic when almost and done of my cardboard!
Samuel J.
Reply
#44
I'm glad that someone else can profit from my mistakes! After all, that is the only reason for me to document my failures in such great detail lol. It's funny how some parts which seem quick end up being slow, and vice versa.

You would think attaching four hinges is not a big deal, but suddenly you look at the clock and... whoa! what happened to the time? Well, let's see... five (six actually, in my case, but that was another mistake) rivets per hinge plate, two plates per hinge, times four hinges, times two since you have to make holes in both the hinges and in the steel plate.... wait a minute!

6 x 2 x 4 x 2 = 96 separate holes to punch for four hinges! ...and that's only after you've marked the center of all the holes, and before you've riveted or screwed together the 48 individual connectors. Gah! Big Grin
--------
Ross

[url="http://galeforcearmoury.blogspot.com"] Working on a segmentata.[/url]
Reply
#45
that's where a drill comes in handy....cuts the work down into fourths! same end result, and more accuracy when aligning the holes. There is a video or two on you tube of some armorers doing so, one of them is Gabber...and his seg looks sooo pwetty!!! But yes, the most simple, ugh...way life is!
Samuel J.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Pompeii Gladius and Scabbard - Work in Progress sulla felix 71 12,266 03-05-2010, 01:50 PM
Last Post: Robert

Forum Jump: