Attic Helmets - who/when/where/why

[kazeryu]

Hi folks,

I am wondering if it would be anachronistic to combine an Attic helm and a Newstead Segmentata. From what I understand, praetorian guards and prefects wore some "attic-inspired" helmets, but I was thinking more along the lines of a legionnaire.

Assuming it's not a ludicrous or improbable combination, what sort of roman would wear such gear? Or to phrase it differently, what would such a combination tell you about a roman soldier wearing it?



To explain why I'm asking -- For various reasons, I decided to put a segmentata together as a hobby project. In the process of learning about segmentatas, I've started to consider putting together a more complete roman impression as a side project. I'm not particularly keen on the Imperial Gallic helmets, however, so I'm trying to explore other historically accurate possibilities.

Thanks.

[kranger3]

Well, glad to know that I'm not alone in not really liking Gallic helmets...

Concerning the Attic helmet, from what I've been reading and understanding, it seems that none were ever found in a Roman military context, and none were ever dated from a post-republican context. It seems, at least to me, that the early Italic type helmets (like the Italic A helmet, a repro here: http://web.me.com/christian.koepfer/AER/...tal_a.html ) would have been born out of the Attic one, as we can see similarities between the two types. However, how likely is it that these helmets would have been used in the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD? I have no idea, though I'm sure that old models of helmets would have been used as long as they were deemed serviceable.

However, a Corbridge segmentata with an Italic A or B helmet would be a very good combination!

[Tarbicus]

Photos #3 and #4 look somewhat familiar, especially if you pluck off the wings and the springs from photo #3.

[kazeryu]

So does this mean that the depiction of the praetorian guard with such helmets was simply an artistic shorthand, and not a true-to-life detail?

I remember reading something about a source describing two guards (in the field) being able to sneak into an opposing legion simply by picking up shields dropped in battle, which suggests that they did not have particularly distinctive gear. Of course, it is also said that the praetorian guard kept two separate sets of armour, so that may only apply to their "field gear", whereas the few artistic depictions of them I've seen have always had them wearing togas (and therefore presumably within Rome's limits).

Can anyone comment on this?

[kranger3]

The exact degree of artistic license in period sculptures/illustrations is a problem we have to take into consideration when trying to figure out what soldiers really looked like. The problem is, only actual archaeological pieces can really show us what this particular item looked like in real life. The period tendency to "greek-erize" people in art, and the degree to which they do it, is a real pain for us today.

Therefore, we have no idea to which extent the period depictions of preatorian guardsmen (and even there, in most cases we're only making an educated guess that they are praetorians) really represent reality. Honestly, your guess is as good as anyone's...

[Nathan Ross]

It might be worth mentioning that several surviving helmets appear to show similarities to the famous 'attic' as depicted so often in Roman sculpture.

This one, for example, from Theilenhofen, dates to the late second century and belonged to a trooper from a Cohors Equitata:



So it's possible there is some sort of missing link yet to be discovered which would closer approximate the 'attic' type. Meanwhile, as suggested above, it's better to stick to what we already know to have existed.

Then again, if you don't like gallic/italic helmets, the Niederbieber type would probably work very well with a Newstead segmentata.

[Tarbicus]

Then again, if you don't like gallic/italic helmets, the Niederbieber type would probably work very well with a Newstead segmentata.

I'm not sure that's good advice, Nathan. The length of the occupital could be a serious problem when you take into account how a seg adds to the height of the shoulders and back of the wearer. I doubt it's wearable in any practical way with a seg, or I'd at least try to find someone who has done it already. Many Gallics are bad enough with their shorter occupitals.

[Nathan Ross]

I'd at least try to find someone who has done it already.

Perhaps I'm using the term Niederbieber rather loosely, but I'm sure I've seen plenty of reconstructions of them worn with segmentata - let me get back to you on that... might be a case of false memory syndrome hmmm :-?

EDIT - OK, found some, I think -

Quintus Julius Furius

L X GPF

Populares Vindelicensis 1

Populares Vindelicensis 2

Whatever you think of the accuracy of the above reconstructions, they do appear to prove that segmentata and Niederbieber style helmets can be worn in combination!

[Tarbicus]

Okay. Looks good. :wink:

[Crispvs]

Looking at those photos I am not convinced that any of them are wearing sufficient padding on their shoulders, judging by the angle of the shoulder plates. I wear around an inch of padding under my shoulder armour, which makes it sit at a different angle to that shown in the photos. I have little doubt that you could wear a Niederbieber helmet with a Newstead segmentata but if it was worn with a realistic amount of padding underneath I doubt that you could tip your head back more than an inch or two.

Crispvs

[Nathan Ross]

I doubt that you could tip your head back more than an inch or two.

Just make sure you're always positioned uphill from the enemy :-)

[kazeryu]

Haha, yes I was actually wondering how often you would need to look up anyways... seems like a good way to catch an arrow in the eye.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes, you have said what comes to mind every time someone makes the comment about lookiing up in a helmet. Didn't have to keep on the lookout for incoming aircraft back then... :grin:

[Crispvs]

Being able to look up is normally quite a useful ability if you are an infantryman having to deal with cavalry. :wink:

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Nahhhh, they have sharp pointy things that make a mess of your face, better to give them a hard target... :mrgreen: