Spartan shoulder protection

[joeandmich]

Did the ancient Greek Spartans wear any type of shoulder armor or protection that was attached or placed on their bronze cuirass?

Thanks

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Nope. But why would you ask?

[joeandmich]

Well I noticed that quite a few different ancient civilazations including other Greeks had some type of shoulder or trapezius protection but have never seen it on Spartan armor. I've also seem Roman musculata with some type of protection and was curious.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Spartans are never attested to have used different types of armour than the other greeks that adopted the hoplitical phalanx. That said,in the archaic and classical times the only type of armour with shoulder protection was what here in RAT we call tube and yoke quirass, some times reffered to as "linothorax" or "spolas".
Only in the very end of classical times and through hellenistic into roman times do muscle cuirasses have some kind of metal shoulder re-enforcements. They are mostly stylistic and are used to secure the top seams of the cuirass with hinges. By that time though Sparta was but a shadow of her glorious self!
Khaire
Giannis

[joeandmich]

Thanks

[richard robinson]

The Roman musculata was based on Hellenistic musculata and I am uncertain how far back that plate on the musculata goes. I am of the opinion that a "solid" bronze plate would not be out of place as part of a T&Y constuction armour,
regards
richard

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

You open a long discussion here,but you might be interested to read the old threads reagarding the topic of metal re-enforcements on the T&Y cuirass. In my view there is no evidence for this, whole remnants of this type of cuirass have been found(like all the rings and decorative pieces of a cuirass in Vergina) and no signs of metal re-enforcements. The only reference to such,if you consider it re-enforcement rather than decoration) is to a set of ptapezoidal pieces found in Dodona and belieced to belong to the narrow end of the shoulder guards of a tube and yoke cuirass. I have never seen photos or more detailed description though.

As i said,the metal re-enforcements on the sohulders of the mucle cuirass dates back to the end of the 5th century or early 4rth century,when we see them on funerary stelae.
Khaire
Giannis

[richard robinson]

Giannis
Thanks for the dating of the reliefs
and yes I have waded through the often painfully long threads on T&Y and have drawn my own conclusions.
Mind you there was lots of good learning involved
I always enjoy your posts and photos and thankyou for them
regards
Richard

[Kineas]

I'm coming late to this, but of course, Richard, it's always a matter of period. In the Archaic, whether in Sparta or elsewhere, there's some evidence of shoulder and upper arm armour. Most of the Black figure vases (Attic, of course) show heroes in what might be called "cap-a-pied" with greaves, thigh armour, arm harness, (at least rerebraces) and what appears ot be a shoulder protection.

Many of these pieces have actually been recovered, but (I believe) only in an Italian context--etrusca and Sicilian finds seem to to include pauldrons, rerebraces, and thigh armour, as well as (I think I have this right) a full foot plate to cover the sandaled foot. I'm pretty sure the find books from Olympia also include at least one pauldron. Mycopy is out on loan.

I've heard it argued that the illustration in black figure are heroes and gods, not real men--that may be the case, but the existence of such items of armour rather suggests that senior aristocrats probably had full harness. Why NOT the king of Sparta?

But then, to be fair, I could also argue that the ethic of Sparta might motivate against having more armour than the others...hard to tell.

[Imagios]

Well at least here: http://www.ancient-warfare.org/rat.html?...&id=292200
you find a link to found artifacts and a shoulder protection is there, hart to tell whether it was only an exeption or only aplicable to one era and place...
I personaly dont know any resource linking anything like that to Sparta

[PMBardunias]

Hoplites surely spent much, if not most, of the time in combat with the arm raised to strike overhand. This makes pouldrons less important because they would be compressed up for most of combat and in the way. Attaching the upper arm guard to the arm and not the shoulder alleviates this problem. You would imagine that these should only be on the right arm, since they would have been superfluous on the left, but there is at least one vase image I can think of where they are on both arms. This is probably artistic error, but who knows.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ehm,people,i think we cross terms here. There are surely many,not few, upper arm guards and most of them,if not all,also cover a part of the shoulder. Olympia doesn't have one but at least four in the permanent exhibition. Who knows how many there are stored.
But would these be called "shoulder protection"? They clearly cover the elbow, and they wrap the whole upper arm like a greave,and most of them -but not all- create a cap to cover the outer part of the utmost section of the arm,essentially the shoulder. But when i said that there is not shoulder protection, i mean something the specifically covered the area from the neck to the arm. That's why i talked about the t&y cuirasses.
Spartan art i think that actually shows arm and thich protection,so the king could very well have them if he liked.
Khairete
Giannis

[richard robinson]

I was speaking in the same context as Giannis. However it this discussion just made
me think of the famous scaled shoulder/ neck armour or fragment thereof. I never did find where it was sourced from. Does anyone Know...? think I have seen it on Rat at least once but i may be confused.
Regards
richard

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

If you are referring to the the very early vase depiction of crudely painted hoplites that Paul B. had traced some years ago, i think it is so vague and crude,that we have few chances to ever find out what it means.
In my own guess,it is just the upper part of a supposed tube and yoke,if a bit early.
Khaire
Giannis

[richard robinson]

Thanks Giannis
It was a picture - I thought of an actual artefact- that was in a long ago lent but never returned copy of an encyclopaedia of arms and weapons.
It was labelled as Greek, looked alot like the "double breasted"(crossed over) scaled Thrakian T&Y in that museum (?)- buit just covered the shoulders like a Roman cavalry armour mantle with an extremely high neck protection- similar to what some are drawing for Persian cataphracts these days.
Regards
Richard