Thespiae?

[MeinPanzer]

Those first two are just printed copies of Wikipedia articles. Central Greece and the Politics of Power in the Fourth Century BC is, however, a real book, and a very good one on fourth century political history.

[Dithrambus]

Those first two are just printed copies of Wikipedia articles. Central Greece and the Politics of Power in the Fourth Century BC is, however, a real book, and a very good one on fourth century political history.

Yes, there are several of those 'wiki' books floating around, I recently purchased a book from Amazon on 15th c German fencing masters, turned out to simply be re-prints of the wiki articles (which I had already read).

[Periander]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Central-Greece-P...69&sr=1-19

Hello Ghostmojo,

Does this title dwell upon Evrytania?

[Ghostmojo]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Central-Greece-P...69&sr=1-19

Hello Ghostmojo,

Does this title dwell upon Evrytania?

I haven't acquired this book Periander (for economic reasons I am on a go slow in the purchase department at present), however, our colleague and my friend Dithyrambus is the guy to enquire of all things Thespiai related.

[Gulan]

I am sorry if this was already answered but the forum is huge.
What was the shield device for Thespians in Archaic times, including Persian wars of course. Lunar symbol..the crescent? How long back does it go? And was it the only device in use?

I am not very keen on that black cloak uniformity idea everyone has today, i didn't find anything on that, but to be safe I will ask where does it come from,was it the case, or just another unfounded myth?

[Ghostmojo]

I am sorry if this was already answered but the forum is huge. What was the shield device for Thespians in Archaic times, including Persian wars of course. Lunar symbol..the crescent? How long back does it go? And was it the only device in use?

I am not very keen on that black cloak uniformity idea everyone has today, i didn't find anything on that, but to be safe I will ask where does it come from,was it the case, or just another unfounded myth?

I'm no expert upon the Thespians, but one book I read touched upon this subject of the black clothing (for mourning) and their lunar shield device of Black Aphrodite:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...&id=230981

I make no comments regarding the authenticity of his image nor the research of such work, other than to say the Greek guy who proposes this stuff seems to have decent credentials!

The first thread link concerns a book about Thermopylai 480BC

This other link concerns another book about Marathon 490BC

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...&id=246222

I hope this is of interest even if it cannot answer all your questions.

[hoplite14gr]

There are no evidence for a "black clad" Thespian unit!
Black as a colour was naturally available but except being frequent in Hellenistic Thracians there is nothing to point to a "black unit" in ancient times.

A quick look on Thespiae here in my blog:
http://stefanosskarmintzos.wordpress.com...thespians/

There is talk also of a phalic-like ksoano (woden statue) based on a rare Thespian coin but I have seen only drawn images of the item so I do not insist upon it.

Kind regards

[Dithrambus]

I am sorry if this was already answered but the forum is huge.
What was the shield device for Thespians in Archaic times, including Persian wars of course. Lunar symbol..the crescent? How long back does it go? And was it the only device in use?

I am not very keen on that black cloak uniformity idea everyone has today, i didn't find anything on that, but to be safe I will ask where does it come from,was it the case, or just another unfounded myth?

If I am not mistaken that began with a mention in a play by Aeschylus, again that could be wrong, if not Aeschylus then perhaps another playwright. As Stefanos and others have pointed out over the years there is absolutely no evidence of a 'black clad' Thespian hoplite. The blog post that Stefanos has linked to is excellent, highly recommend that you start there and perhaps some of the other texts mentioned, I do not have the book you asked about earlier in the thread, so I cannot answer your question as to its content (and my friend Howard is being much too kind concerning my knowledge of Thespiae :wink: ). Most of what little knowledge I possess on the subject of Thespiae comes from Pausanius (Central Greece), Apolodorus Library of Greek Mythology, a few other sources and asking lots of questions!

Glad to see more interest in Thespiae and welcome to the forum Gulan! :grin:

Edit: Here is an excerpt from an article by Nikolaos Markoulakis:

"As far as their entitlement as melachites, I must confess that I never heard before this title for Thespiae’s hoplites and/or for any of the hoplites. Once again that is a tendency to stick the element of uniformity and contingency. There is no evidence whatsoever that address the Thespian’s uniform as black and/or dark cloaked, as the term melachites points out.

Let us see now where we can find it in literature. The term melachiton (μελαχίτων) which means literary the black-cloaked is mentioned at the chorus in Aeschylus’ Persians which seems to be more like an allegorical image of a ‘scared heart’ (Aesh. Pers. 115). The same kind of meaning – the scared and weak – can been seen in Eumenides, the black-robed, μελανείμων, and the bringers of fear and of self-destruction (Aesh. Eumenides 2.38). There is also the μελαμπέπλῳ στολῇ, the black-robe in which Admetor was dressed – as well as the Spartan Tundareos (Orestes 12.43)- for their πὲνθος (Alcestis 258, 425), extreme sense of sadness. It is also mentioned by Herodotus (4.102,1; 4.107.1) as μελάγχλαινος, the back-cloaked, but for non of the Greek armies and hoplites but rather for the nation-tribe neighboring Scythians as they had also the same customs, who they named as such because of their black uniforms.

For me, thus, it makes more sense to call the Scythians black-cloaked rather than the Thespians. But why, regardless the literary and iconography lack of evidences many believe that the Thespians whore a black-cloak? For some believe that the Thespian army was dressed in black because they worshiped the Melainis Aphrodite, meaning ‘the dark one’ or ‘of the graves’, which was an epithet of the Goddess under which she was worshiped at Corinth (Paus. 2.2.4; ff. 8.6.2, 9.17.4; Athen. I cannot see any mentioned evidences that linked the cult with Thespiae and if indeed there was a cult of Melainis Aphrodite why it became the reason of the supposed black-cloaked Thespians and not of the Corinthians who were so well-known of their cults in honor of the Goddess? And why only the Thespians choose to wear a color so much interrelated with sadness and bad luck? I am sure they did not. It is difficult for me to imagine that only the Thespiae’s hoplites decided to bring with them bad fortune’s symbol at war."

[Ghostmojo]

I always defer to Mark and Stefanos on Thespian issues. I make no claims either way regarding the issue of black attire. It seems likely that prevailing wisdom is correct - but then it always is until we learn differently! I would suggest people check out these Periscopio books anyway just out of interest. They are written and published in Greece by Greek authors (English versions available) and illustrated by another Hellene who also has his work occasionally featured in the Ancient Warfare magazine (as indeed it is this issue [Vol. V / Issue 6] p36 - Seleucid Cataphract).

[Paralus]

For those trying to run it to ground, the article referenced above is What the Thespians hoplites looked like? found in Sparta Journal. The quoted part is page two.

[Dithrambus]

For those trying to run it to ground, the article referenced above is What the Thespians hoplites looked like? found in Sparta Journal. The quoted part is page two.

Thanks Michael, I should have linked the full article. :oops: :-)