Infantry Javelin quiver

[garrelt]

More and more you see Late Roman Infantry walking around on events with a quiver on their back loaded with Javelins.

Where lays the origin of carrying Javelins in this way.
I know Javelin quivers were used in the cavalry role.

The total length, including the tip, of surviving Javelins from Thorsberg and Illerup-Adal lays around 90cm.

I have been told that a publisher also has something to say about details in drawings which are published in a book.
[attachment=1319]quiver.jpg[/attachment]

[Albertomv]

There are tombstones of 3 century that portrait an soldier with a branch of lancea, and they are apparenttly in a quiver.

You can see it Aurelius Mucianus tombstone in: http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/o...Itemid,94/

This is just an interpretation, altough a quiver is a convenient way to easily transport several javelines.
[attachment=1320]3024196265_261a39b9a8.jpg[/attachment]

[garrelt]

Alberto

I'm aware of these tombstones, and bundled spears.
But where is the strap?
Could it be the crossed lines below the right hand holding the spear shafts?

As you say a quiver is easy for transport, but getting a 1.5mtr long spear out of a quiver hanging on your back in the thick of battle is another thing.

The 5 spears depicted in the tombstone that you present here corresponds with a lot "Germanic" graves that contain 3 to 5 small spearheads / big arrow heads.
On some shafts and heads traces of cloth were recovered, which also could imply that these small spears were wrapped in a cloth when they were put in the grave.
The same has been found on other weapons like spears,swords, shields etc.

[Albertomv]

Another tombstones of the period present similar depictions of a soldier with a bundle of javelines, but in this cases the arm of the javelin is easily visible as in Lucius Septimius Viator

[attachment=1321]11copyv.jpg[/attachment]

[Crispvs]

"As you say a quiver is easy for transport, but getting a 1.5mtr long spear out of a quiver hanging on your back in the thick of battle is another thing."


A couple of years ago I did a third century impression and carried a quiver like the one implied by the stele of Aurelius Mucianus on my back. It contained eight lanciae each measuring about 4'8". You can see the heads emerging from behind my right shoulder in this photograph.



Even with the javelins in this position, after only about five minutes practice, reaching over my shoulder with my right hand I was able to draw each javelin out of the quiver in about three seconds, jerking it up and catching it so that it rose rapidly out of the quiver until I could draw it properly to throw. I managed to draw and throw all eight lanciae in around fifty seconds.
Now, this was done in a standing position for public demonstration rather than in the heat of battle, but I think that if I could draw a javelin of that length in three seconds after five minutes' practice then a trained soldier would be able to do the same under battlefield conditions, even if those conditions did not allow him to draw all of his javelins in as rapid a succession as I was able to.

Crispvs

[Titus Marius Secundus]

That's a beautiful shield Crispvs! Did you make that? I plan on making my own earlier shield soon...after I'm done with my sword :oops:

I think skirmishers carried multiple quiver like projectiles in those sheathes, and knowing the Romans...they probably decided it would be a good idea to carry them too...It's also I think I've read somewhere...a modification of the pilum, just smaller, lighter, so now they could carry more than two pila with them, less hand to hand contact sound like a nice idea :grin:

[garrelt]

Crispvs

Thanks for your reply.
So static has proven to work.
Did you hit the designated target with accuracy, and from what distance ?
Then the only thing that has to be tried is how it works in a mock battle, with blunt spears of the same size and weight.

Small side step.

From experience I know the less you carry with you into a battle, the more mobile you are.
Any lose strap is a welcome target to catch for a handaxe or a winged spear, both known in later Roman times.
It could be than that these quivers with Javelins were used in the second/third rank, just to annoy the opponent and take out any random target.

Nice line to walk into:
A phalanx or block with big shields and long spears in front, backed by Javelins, Plumbatea, slingers and archers.
Enjoy the ride. :???:

But back to the topic.
Is there iconic evidence that the quivers were worn on a soldiers back, or is this a plausible interpretation?

What do you prefer:
A leather quiver or a fabric quiver?

[Crispvs]

As Peronis and others here can readily testify, I am hardly the world's best javelin thrower so I made no attempt to hit any sort of target or achieve any real distance during this display. I was merely demonstrating the action of drawing and throwing for the audience. Throwing for length or accuracy would probably take a second or so more I suspect. I doubt that the soldier in combat would have any wish or opportunity to expend all of his javelins so quickly though in any case. I should say here that the quiver I used was made of quite soft and flexible leather, the flexibility of which probably added to the ease of drawing the javelins, which were loaded into it so that the points emerged from the top.

I agree about not wishing to be encumbered with too many straps and pieces of equipment when going into combat. Once I had expended all of the javelins I found that the soft leather quiver flopped about in an annoying way and I think if I was to use such a quiver in battle I would try to discard it as quickly as possible once I had emptied it.

You might be right about them being used by second or third rank infantry. Then again, they could have been used by skirmishers ahead of the main lines.

Crispvs

[garrelt]

I should say here that the quiver I used was made of quite soft and flexible leather, the flexibility of which probably added to the ease of drawing the javelins, which were loaded into it so that the points emerged from the top.

I was thinking of making a transport quiver from heavy cloth like thick Linen or Hemp, reinforced on "strategic" places with Leather.

I agree about not wishing to be encumbered with too many straps and pieces of equipment when going into combat. Once I had expended all of the javelins I found that the soft leather quiver flopped about in an annoying way and I think if I was to use such a quiver in battle I would try to discard it as quickly as possible once I had emptied it.

I have the same idea.
Don't like dangling equipment when I'm running around.

You might be right about them being used by second or third rank infantry. Then again, they could have been used by skirmishers ahead of the main lines.
Crispvs

This is how you define the task of a skirmisher.

Is a skirmisher, as you point out, a fore fighter to lure the opponent out of his position or is the skirmisher, also an Archer, being used as a "sniper" to take out designated or random targets?

As a skirmisher you have to be fast and agile, the longer you stay away from your protective legion, in "no-mans-land", the easier target you will be for the opponent.
At least this is my opinion on how to use troops and their material.
But this belongs more to a tactical topic.