1st to 2nd century baldric fastening experiences

[noxia]

Hello,
i was wondering if some people here are wearing a slim baldric.

I came across the facilis tombstone and some reconstructions using a small buckle.
Is there anyone who saw the tomstone and could detect any hint on a small buckle?

During my work on germanic military equipment from the 3rd century, i noticed, that in in scandinavian burials buckles were used for the baldric, similar as in Illerup. This starts out in Ilkjaers Waffengruppen 1-3 which would be the Ältere Römische Kaiserzeit.
There is also one example using a buckle which resembles the roman waistbelt buckles.

Then there is the evidence of the fayum mummy portraits depicting some guys with slim baldrics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fayum-22.jpg
He wears no armour under the baldric, therefore i was asking myself if this would make much difference for the wearer. I mean, if you are accustomed to wearing the sword in a distinct way and height, would it confuse you, if it would hang in a different position without armour?
Would the position change in a way one would notice at all?

From the Thorsberg material i can say, that 3 buckles must have been used as baldric buckles. In one case the leather strip must have been girded in a different way.
But what about the roman baldrics? Would it make sense to have them adjustable? or is that a useless thought?
Concerning the fact, that we don´t have any evidence in the reliefs: could such details have been painted?

Well, thanks in advance for discussion and sorry for the mistakes

regards
nox

[agrimensor]

[attachment=1266]kruiszwaard_2011-07-08.jpg[/attachment]
May be this a suggestion for a baldric, ajustable and very simple to make ( no evidence though)
succes with the search.
Vale

[noxia]

Hi and thank you,
to some extent it does help me. You choose a variant which is in similar form attested for Illerup in the beginning of the 3rd century.

But DO you adjust it? Is there any need for it?
I read a statement, that while riding it would be better to have the baldric rather short and therefore the sword very high. This could make problems while taking it on and off? What about that? Any experiences yet?

And what about the difference with or without armour, mail for example?

so many questions...
once again thank you

[agrimensor]

I have tryed to ajust it, but it wasn't needed at that time, but if i would wear the scabbard for al onger period without armour (segmentata) I would ajust the instant.
For use with buckle is posible too the only problem i see is how to get the buckle trough the rings?
Vale

[Gaius Colletti]

My baldric is just a single strip of leather that is slung over the shoulder with a slit on each with small holes punched in, the strip is pulled through the metal loop on the scabbard and tied through the small holes. I will say it is looks fine until it is compared to someone with a much nicer baldric with buckles and whatnot.

[Tarbicus]

Jorge Mambrilla's idea is that there was a mushroom stud to alter the length of the baldric, not a buckle, and he has a neat solution for swapping gladii while using the same baldric - hooks.

http://www.armillum.com/product.php?id_product=292

Presented the belt tries to solve two problems that we have been finding over the years dedicated to this hobby. On the one hand, although it is clear that this type of harness used, it is not so much how he joined, as he graduated length. No buckles have been found beside the gladius, and joints that are commonly used in some groups of reconstruction are apparently parts of the harness of a horse, or not belonging to a gladius. Here we opted for the modern use of what is known as "pasafusiles" a mushroom-shaped piece that passes through two orficios on the straps. This kind of parts, mushroom-shaped, it is very common in archaeological excavations, and we believe was used in this way. Another problem we have tried to solve is the need to use a different for each gladius sword belt, since the ends are sewn and are fixed to the sheath of his gladius. This baldric we opted to use hooks as used in the model Segmentata Newstead Lorica, so that you can change pod with no problems. Made of 3 mm cowhide. thick, with brass fittings. Color can be dyed upon request.

[scott]

I'm genuinely interested to learn of new suggestions as to how the four suspension rings on the Pompeii and Mainz e.g. should be utilized in conjunction with a baldric, be it buckled, pinned, hooked or otherwise. Probably like the rest of you, i've spent hours finely adjusting baldric straps and fittings to get the right position. I'm sure it may have been suggested before, but in some cases have we not become obsessed with having to use the four rings at the same time? I haven't seen any suggestion, other than simple bi or questionably tri-ring suspension that looks right or functional from a purely practical perspective.

I appreciate that with evidence scant to categorically say the gladius/spatha was hung this way or that it's unlikely there will be a collectively accepted method. But equally I struggle to see why the Romans would engineer a method of suspension that as interpreted by us would either stress the rings back around the scabbard, or have baldric straps forced through them in a variety of complex ways. What if we're all over engineering the problem, maybe it's as simple as using the rings themselves as a form of adjustment? Top two for the bigger guys, bottom two for the shorter guys, while all the time employing a uniform baldric length? Alternatively, opposite diagonals top to bottom to give a tilt forwards when worn left and reversed when worn right?

I'm sure someone's going to crucify me in here for being so simplistic, but I can't help wonder if there may be some practical basis in my thinking?

Helmet on, fingers in ears ready for the backlash.............!

[noxia]

Thank you for your answers.
Studs are attested in combination with third century baldrics in Illerup as you can see here:

http://www.illerup.dk/custom/illerup_lar...ension=jpg

And this system of attachment can also be used with the suspension rings of the gladius as Agrimensor showed.

Well actually my head is aching and i am not a bit further with my investigation. But next week I will have the oportunity to work with the plans of Illerup in GIS.

My idea is that there was a possibility of attaching the third century baldric to the cingulum with some kind of stud or fitting (like it seems to be attested on the Bishapur relief). But there must have been also the opportunity to loosen that if needed.

But because there are as you see also in the third century ways of wearing a baldric without the round phalerae attested i was wondering how things were in the first and second century...


Btw. in Vindonissa a buckle has been found with a gladius and the balteus, but it was not interpreted as part of the attachment yet (Deschler-Erb 1996, Jb Pro Vindonissa).

@agrimensor: the construction can be done with one buckle and without any problems of getting it through the rings.
As i have no gladius and leather belt i will try to sketch the solution later...

[noxia]

ok, here are some sketches.
well i am not so talented but perhaps you will know what i mean...

http://tinypic.com/r/2vn30p2/7
http://tinypic.com/r/2rrthjl/7

[Gaius Colletti]

Noxia, so you are suggesting the use for 4 rings was to run the baldric through the top loop, and attached to the bottom loop in order to secure it to the balteus?

This is interesting, I use the 4 ends of my baldric and attach it to my scabard, then I run the balteus between the top and bottom loops to secure the scabbard. Since my balteus is a bit big (I don't have my segmentata yet) it helps suspend the balteus.

[noxia]

Matt, you are right. Actually there is no need to cross the straps.
I will consider this too.
Thanks.