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Rome and Scotland
#1
My local city, Alexandria Virginia, was founded by Scots and takes Scottish things pretty seriously. I have heard conflicting opinions on how much influence the Roman army and Rome had on the folks and culture up there. The most curious was the Scottish tourist bureau claiming that the toga was the direct ancestor of the plaid!<br>
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Are there any good references on this relationship? It would be fun to march at the lead of their Scottish Walk, if it could be substantiated. Or even if it couldn't, but more links would be better than the Scottish government's press releases. <p>Legio XX<br>
Fortius Conamur<br>
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Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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#2
by my knowledge, the kilt was "invented" in the 16th century by the English (in order to distinguish the Scots from the "better race"). Before that time the Scots had trousers like anybody else. <p>Volo anaticulam cumminosam meam!</p><i></i>
gr,
Jeroen Pelgrom
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I would rather have fire storms of atmospheres than this cruel descent from a thousand years of dreams.
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#3
Check out this link on the evoloution of the kilt:<br>
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www.reconstructinghistory...kilts.html<br>
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Some of the terms such as 'plaid' and 'tartan' originally meant something different from what they do today. It looks as though the 'brat' might be something like a toga, but it doesn't actually say it was derived from the toga.<br>
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Wendy<br>
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P.S. Rich, now I have two reasons to want to visit your area, the Roman stuff and the Scottish stuff! <p>"I am an admirer of the ancients,but not like some people so as to despise the talent of our own times." Pliny the Younger</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rekirts>rekirts</A> at: 8/25/03 3:43 pm<br></i>
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#4
Castor and Pollux, not this one again! It's as bad as the Roman train tracks one...<br>
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The classic Roman toga was changing dramatically in the 3rd century AD, and seems to have gone out entirely or mutated into something else about the 4th or 5th century. At that time, the various Caledonians, Picts, and Scoti up north were wearing their own variations on tunics, probably trousers, and big cloaks, just like the rest of the planet.<br>
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In medieval Scotland, the traditional costume had become the leine and brat, the former being a long-sleeved shirt or tunic (apparently linen, often yellow), the latter being a woolen cloak, usually fuzzy and fringed. At some point in the late middle ages or Renaissance (quite possibly earlier), the brat began to be made of tartan or plaid fabric--the terminology becomes tangled because there were no "clan tartans" yet, and "plaid" was apparently a Gaelic word for "blanket"! The brat grew bigger, and sometime about 1600 folks took to belting it around the waist, yielding the "belted plaid" or "great kilt", which could be 5 or 6 yards long. It was worn by men (knee-length) and women (ankle-length), the part above the belt being high enough to drape over the head in bad weather, or pin together over the left shoulder and under the right arm. Then comes the big step, chopping off the top part of the thing so that only the pleated, belted skirt is left, and oddly enough this is attributed to an Englishman who lived about 1725. (Foundryman, I believe, wanting to keep the voluminous parts out of the furnaces, etc.) (No, I don't know why the heck he wasn't wearing trousers and a leather apron!!)<br>
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Bottom line, NO, there is absolutely no link between kilt and toga!!<br>
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As an interesting sidenote, the traditional Irish saffron yellow kilt got it's start with the medieval leine and brat, too. Early Irish and Scottish clothing was very similar, not surprising since the Scoti are believed to have come from Ireland. But when the brat started taking over the scene in Scotland, in Ireland it was the leine that grew, becoming very full with large bell sleeves, and traditionally saffron-colored. Apparently the top of it became contained or covered or removed, while the part below the belt remained to become the Irish kilt.<br>
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So Richard, go back to the Tourist Bureau and give them a good drubbing!<br>
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Valete,<br>
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Quintus/Matthew, The Fashion Plate <p></p><i></i>
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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