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Hibernicus · 07-29-2003, 01:15 PM

Recently some of the guys in LEGIO VI V PF do Los Angeles expressed an interst in SCA fighting. 
 
The BEST place to get info about SCA fighting is from the LOCAL chapter (in SCA parlance: Kingdom). Each of the 17 chapters has a set ofrules for combat that apply to that chapter. Many ofthe Rules apply SCA-wide but many do not. 
 
Go to www.sca.org to start 
 
Go to www.sca.org/geography/welcome.html to find the Kingdom you live in. 
 
Each Kingdom has an official called the Earl Marshal. I think each Kingdom has a link to their Rules. Often the complete set of combat rules are published on-line. Sometimes you'll be referred to a more local official. Each Kingdom can be further subdivided into smaller administrative areas, each with its own Marshal. 
 
Your BEST bet for finding out the particulars for SCA combat is to conact someone local. 
 
Hibernicus 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CON I HIB 
 
Chapters in: Okinawa , Northern California, Washington, Texas, Los Angeles, Riverside, Orange, San Diego, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, and England with a new chapter forming in Camp Pendelton. 
 
www.legio-ix-hispana.org

Los456 · 07-29-2003, 05:10 PM

I've noticed that some SCA (or Dagohir) "Roman" fighters have tried to standardize their gear, appearance, etc. Has anyone done any such thing? There are a number of SCA-type helmets that have a general look of Roman helmets (with cheek, and neckguards as well as grills.) But what about shields? Standard oval heater or T6 shields painted red is what I've seen (but using straps). You don't see too many Lorica Segmenatatas out there. 
 
What about the Pilium? Though some events allow missile weaponry, there's seems to be a loophole in that the required gauntlets for swords pretty much make it impossible to get OK'd by a marshall to bring on a Javelin type weapon and and throw it while still using the required hand protection for swords, (which in itself makes it almost impossible to throw a javelin due to design constraints). 
 
Enquiring minds want to know. 
 
Los

Hibernicus · 07-29-2003, 06:49 PM

Some info on an SCA warband The Ninth Legion showing Lorica segs in use... 
www.geocities.com/e_ducra...egion.html 
 
Pilum.... allowed but their effectiveness as an aspect of SCA warfare is mitigated by rules that make it bulky and the head too soft. 
 
Gauntlets. Spears, javelin, pilum et al can be thrown with gauntlets or similar hand protection.. you simply need the right kind... also hand protection for thrown weapons can be different from Kingdom to Kingdom. In Caid 9southern California) a half-gauntlet is allowed.. the fingers are left uncovered.. other forms of padded sports gloves can also be legal.. rules vary form Kingdom to Kingdom. 
 
Hibernicus 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CON I HIB 
 
Chapters in: Okinawa , Northern California, Washington, Texas, Los Angeles, Riverside, Orange, San Diego, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, and England with a new chapter forming in Camp Pendelton. 
 
www.legio-ix-hispana.org

Hibernicus · 07-29-2003, 07:03 PM

One of my favorite pics... 
 
One of the reasons why staggared combat lines do not work.. 
 
www.geocities.com/e_ducra...tle_2.html 
 
The haybale deliniates a "bridge" 
- The gent on the left with the yellow and black stripped pole is a Marshal.. there for safety, not to call blows.. he looks for injured fighters and gear that's popped off.. 
- Notice the pole in the armpitof the fellow in red with the Morion helmet. 
- In the middle is a fellow in green tabard leaning forward.. he's just been gacked by that purply/yellow edged "axe".. on a 6.5' pole, weapon weighs up to . 7.5 lbs. often made of a semisolid such as high density packing foam with a 1.5" layer of compressible foam on the edge topped with a 1.5" layer of rattan as a "clacker" Some are made with solid rubber similary edged. techniques vary 
- Yes! there are guys laying down underneath that. 
- the fellow laying down to the lower right of the pic, you can just see his legs, behind the blue and yellow shield.... he had been knocked ass-over-tea kettle in the previous charge.... he was unconscious, but it took a moment for someone to notice. 
 
Enjoy! 
 
Hibernicus

07-30-2003, 04:43 AM

I politely reiterate my point that this seems not to resemble Roman warfare in the very least. 
 
Darius

Jeroen Pelgrom · 07-30-2003, 06:22 AM

nice photoÃ‚Â´s but eehhh, did they mean to represent a Roman battle or a different timeline (or just to have a great time).

Dean Cunningham metalsmit · 07-30-2003, 07:11 AM

SCA is multi period'ish. Toss on a freon tank with holes in it and a tabard and suddenly you're a crusader! 
 
 
You can have fun and learn alot about armed combat but don't take it too seriously. I'll post some photos of the second's SCA combat gear soon. You have to make many compramises with SCA gear so it can NEVER be period. Just a filthy guy swingin' a hammer

Hibernicus · 07-30-2003, 11:38 AM

Darius : I politely reiterate my point that this seems not to resemble Roman warfare in the very least. 
 
Ahh.. but it does resemble what happens when two forces with little line integrety and no discipline charge each other at a full run, hard and fast... ALL semblence of order and command control, what little there was, disappears... pfft! 
 
There is no way for one side or the other to advance. There are guys laying down on the ground in that mob, some on top of each other, some guys on their knees, some stooping, some standing. .. mix in their shields and weapons... 
 
Now imagine this scene with one side standing in a tight shield line. Line integrity, unit discipline. The charging mob would break upon it like waves on a sea wall. 
 
You can readily see how a staggered shield line gets penetrated instantly and deeply by a force charging at a full run. That's why these two forces RAN at each other, so that neither would lose ground. Neither has the discipline to stand up to such a charge and then methodically take their opponent apart. These two undisciplined force HAD to run at each other. It's all they know. 
 
 
 
Hibernicus 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CON I HIB 
 
Chapters in: Okinawa , Northern California, Washington, Texas, Los Angeles, Riverside, Orange, San Diego, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, and England with a new chapter forming in Camp Pendelton. 
 
www.legio-ix-hispana.org

Los456 · 07-30-2003, 01:46 PM

re: resembling Roman warfare in the very least. 
 
Yes but what we have here is a nice environment or if you will laboratory to validate certain roman tactics. That's the point. How about 200 "romans" using roman formations, tactics, and commands wading into this sea of barbarians? Using multiple lines, working out line changes, trying to pass command using Roman horns. Here we have a ready-made mass of warriors. 
 
It becomes one of several different tools open to reenactors to get a better understanding of their hobby. All you need is a little will, a little imagination and an analytical mindset to study the "lab" and find out how to use it to your advantage. 
 
Los

Hibernicus · 07-30-2003, 04:43 PM

One of the aspects of SCA that we've been involved with here in Southern California is something unique within the SCA. It is growing less unique throughout the SCA as others over the years have seem the value in the system we employ. 
 
Most SCA 'armies' are led by a King, someone who serves in that office for 6 months 
 
In So Calif our 'army' is led by a Captain General who serves for an average of 5 years. The Army is divided into 5 brigades, each with its own Brigade General. The Capt General has a Command Staff comprised of a 2nd and several Staff Colonels. Each Brigade is further subdivided in Companies/ Warbands led by a Captain. Each Warband has a second as well as numerous NCOs 
 
The entire Army operates under a Uniform Military Command. 
 
The various brigades display varied levels of skill and discipline. Each has a mix of combatants which ultimately determines its role within Army.. some are good at skirmishing, another is good at penetrating the enemies lines, another is good at meeting the enemy head on and grinding him down.. that sort of thing 
 
The Second Brigade, the largest and most organized fields about 150 combatants, divided into 1 large, 3 medium and 4 smaller companies/warbands. 4 of the warbands are heavy infantry. 3 of the warbands have Roman themes, another uses Scutums. The others have other cultural themes, including one Viking and one Norman, but they all operate as trained disciplined units. 
 
The 2nd Brig trains monthly, attended by 75 soldiers on average. Combatants make at least 2 practices each year, most attend an average of 6. 
 
Training consists of an hour of marching and maneuvering in unit formations... a diamond (point unit, two wings, others deployed in depth and reserve; an echelon left or right; a column with wings that can be deployed,plus reserves, etc). This is followed by drill with weapons. Practice consists of combat scenarios, scenarios likely to be used in an upcoming "war". Some are standard: bridge, open field, assaulting a fortified position. 
 
A typical large War in the western US has 3 days of combat. Each day has 6-12 scenarios. Some are repeats in which the sides reverse. A typical combat day is approx 6 hours long. Some scenarios have time limits typically 30-45 minutes. Some scenarios are scheduled to last 2 hours. Time between scenarios is 5-30 minutes. Open field battles, often on relatively level ground, with upwards of 1000 combatants per side, can be over in 15 minutes. "Everyone up, let's do it again!!" 
 
Hibernicus

07-30-2003, 08:05 PM

Caid is fortunate to have an extremely organized force in comparison to most of the SCA Kingdoms. Having lived in several "Kingdoms" it is nice to see the differences in how the groups do things. 
 
I have no illusions about having true-to-form Roman units/ tactics/ formations on the SCA battlefield. First off, SCAdians are hobbyists, not disciplined soldiers. There are a few folks that understand the necissity of discipline and even fewer who practice it. 
 
Also, the SCA is not designed to be a war reenactment group. It was started as a group of people interested in recreating the idealized pre-1600 period (largely comprised of romanticized chivalry, and knightly pursuits). The concept of Chivalry was unknown at the time of the Caesars, but the Romans had their own virtues. 
 
Essentially you have a bunch of people with their own ideas of how they want to portray "chivalry" and periodness, ranging from the hellenistic age to the various versions of Arthurian sagas, to the Norse sagas, to the Robin Hood wannabes, to the war of the roses, to the english civil war...all on the same field. You get all these folks trying to have a moment of heroism (something a lot of folks don't get in their mundane lives) and for the most part, you get chaos. 
 
Some folks, Caid is an excellent example of how being part of a team is it's own form of bravery (even if just in a weekend warrior sense). 
 
Basically, we get to put on pseudo-period (ok, sometimes not even that) "armor" and play hero for the weekend. we get to beat the crap out of people with sticks: and not go to jail. We get to have our own little units where we define our world: Roman, Norse, English, whatever. For the weekend, we get to be what we want to. 
 
The SCA has it's good points and bad points. There are a lot of both. Like any group, you make your own little niche and make it what you want...and ignore the rest. I think it is a lot better than getting all dressed up and doing nothing but standing around, camping in a dress and talking about it... 
 
It's really cool when reenactors participate and show the SCAdians what period really looks like (and that it really isn't that hard to be period either.) 
 
Caius Livius Varus Germanicus (KSCA) 
COH.III.BRIT.EQ 
~AnTir~ ================ 
"Self-Pity" 
I never saw a wild thing 
sorry for itself. 
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough 
without ever having felt sorry for itself. 
 
D. H. Lawrence

Dean Cunningham metalsmit · 07-31-2003, 05:35 AM

I like the beat the crap out of each other with sticks part myself. Just a filthy guy swingin' a hammer

johnlg3 · 08-04-2003, 08:27 PM

Ditto! 
Well put Dean! 
John Gross

**Robert Vermaat** · 08-05-2003, 07:13 AM

Hi Hibernicus, 
Your army sounds as if it is highly organised and disciplined as a result. What I'd like to know, does that 'uniqueness' result in the various warbands defeating the opposition? Do you win more than the enemy? 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

Hibernicus · 08-05-2003, 10:45 AM

Valerius/Robert writes: "Your army sounds as if it is highly organised and disciplined as a result. What I'd like to know, does that 'uniqueness' result in the various warbands defeating the opposition? Do you win more than the enemy?" 
 
Yes. 
 
It usually takes larger numbers to defeat it. 
 
 
Sean Richards 
 
Gaius Valerius Tacitus Hibernicus 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CON I HIB 
 
Chapters in: Okinawa , Northern California, Washington, Texas, Los Angeles, Riverside, Orange, San Diego, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, England and Camp Pendelton 
 
www.legio-ix-hispana.org

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