VEMBRACES

[garrelt]

Every one on this forum makes his kit/outfit according to what has been found in the ground.
At least I hope so.
Otherwise we can stop researching and reconstructing saves a lot of time, money and discussions. :?

Dan
"One historian looks at a sculpture and misinterprets a glove cuff as vambraces. The next historian who reads this doesn't bother to look at the sculpture himself and just repeats the dodgy claim."
Or takes a different look at it.

This is one of the almost daily discussions at work between our archaeologists, interpretation of Archaeological evidence.

Vambrace (avant-bras=>forearm) is a fairly modern (14th/15th) century name for a lower armguard.
Manica being the oldest name that we know off, or is their another word for a (fore)armguard.

Was a (weapon)forearm protection known in Roman times and used by soldiers ?
A simple thick cloth bound around a forearm gives some form of basic protection against cuts and stabs.

[Tarbicus]

You have certainly done your homework Tabicus, but do you really consider a male from 2000 years ago who was 5'5" or 5'7" to be exceptionally smaller? I am 5'7" but I my hat size is a 7.5 which is considered large and my hands are just as large as someone who is taller than me.

Matt, I was clear about the proportions applying to inherited characteristics. I'm wondering if I could say that your example is a genetic anachronism?

Do we not still regard the classical Greek male proportions to be the ideal even today? How tall were the ancient Greeks?

[Dan Howard]

"One historian looks at a sculpture and misinterprets a glove cuff as vambraces. The next historian who reads this doesn't bother to look at the sculpture himself and just repeats the dodgy claim."
Or takes a different look at it.

This is one of the almost daily discussions at work between our archaeologists, interpretation of Archaeological evidence.

Which is how it is supposed to be. The problem is when people are too lazy to apply critical thinking or independent verification. This is how a statement like "It is possible that this Roman sculpture is depicting a wrist guard of some sort" becomes "Romans wore wrist guards when in battle".

[garrelt]

"The problem is when people are too lazy to apply critical thinking or independent verification."

This is what I call re-enactors, re-enacting, re-enactors. :wink:

With every spade put in the ground, or any new archaeological/scientific publication history can change a little bit.

For me a leather/metallic forearm protection is a piece of safety equipment during re-enactment battles.
This also counts for a weapon hand glove.
In the viking scene this safety equipment is a must to take the field.
But there is a difference here:
Not many Romans fight in the same way as in the Viking scene. (different topic)

If there is any evidence around that these protections were worn/existed , than I would not have to explain to the public on an event that these are a compromise.
But I need this kind of safety equipment.
I need my fingers for my daily work, they pay the bills.

I saw pictures and roman re-enactors who wear a padded glove on their shieldhand.
Are the scuta so uncomfortable that you need these?
Might be that some shield rethinking has to be done here.

[Tarbicus]

If there is any evidence around that these protections were worn/existed , than I would not have to explain to the public on an event that these are a compromise.

For Romans there's the manica, which can extend to protecting the hand.

I saw pictures and roman re-enactors who wear a padded glove on their shieldhand.
Are the scuta so uncomfortable that you need these?
Might be that some shield rethinking has to be done here.

Unless Romans had smaller hands and modern reconstructions need upscaling? I think this was commented on here recently.

[garrelt]

For Romans there's the manica, which can extend to protecting the hand.

I know, already have one.
But I'm not always in Legionair kit, and it restricts arm movement.

I saw pictures and roman re-enactors who wear a padded glove on their shieldhand.
Are the scuta so uncomfortable that you need these?
Might be that some shield rethinking has to be done here.

Unless Romans had smaller hands and modern reconstructions need upscaling? I think this was commented on here recently.

Saw the comments about this.
Like the surviving umbos these also have different inside diameter sizes.
I compared the hand openings of the different shields that are known.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Man! I never thought a thread I started could reach that far...

Thank you very much all of you guys!

[garrelt]

Man! I never thought a thread I started could reach that far...

Thank you very much all of you guys!

But still no direct answer to you question

[Lonicvs]

When fighting the wrist and fist are prone to injury. The bones of the wrist and forearm are fragile and a soldier who cannot hold a weapon becomes a casualty. Armoring the fist is difficult, a rather intricate project, but protecting the wrist is much simpler. If you have ever had your wrist smashed you would realize the value of a good leather vambrace.

[garrelt]

Lonnie welcome

During the years I have seen many Hand injuries due to the fact that no protection was used by the wearer.
A few years back I even had to undergo surgery to one finger because the Filmdirector said we could not use gloves in a fightscene.
Swordpoint got into the finger, taking a chip of the bone and almost cutting through the senew.

Different re-enacting era, but I'm somewhere in there on the recieving side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvH7kCY9k...re=related

[Tarbicus]

Still no evidence for vambraces being used by the Romans, then, except for the very long articulated one called the manica, which could also cover the thumb and/or hand, and had the added advantage of protecting the whole exposed part of the arm?

[Lonicvs]

There is little or no evidence of many things that logic dictates would have been used. It just makes sense. I am not a shareholder of "BracerWorld" stock. It just makes sense to protect your wrist. It is a cheap, effective technique to prevent your "money-maker"- your sword hand/ wrist from crippling damage when exposed to normal combat.
When a swordsman thrusts his hand and forearm are exposed and extremely vulnerable and a juicy target of opportunity! If my hand is wounded I am a casualty! My military career and probably my life, are over. Is there any evidence for one-handed Centurions? Most of the dudes on Trajans column appear to have both!

[Lonicvs]

Cool video clip, by the way!

[tiberius aemilius naso]

Most of the dudes on Trajans column appear to have both!

But any of them wears bracers. The fact is that there isn't archeological or even sculptural evidence. And what makes sense for us may have not made sense for them.

[caiusbeerquitius]

There is nowadays enough evidence of the use of leather and leather armour in Roman times then 20 years ago.
Back then you were ridiculed when you were wearing a leather segmentata,but when you take a look at picture 191 on page 144 of the book "Arms and armour of the imperial roman soldier 2009" you really have to rethink this.

garrelt, you should read this thread.