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Fibula?
#16
Ah yes - from the better X-ray image we can see that it does indeed seem to be a strap connector from a piece of cavalry harness.

Brian, can we *please* stop referring to these objects as baldric fasteners? It is now well known, both from contexts and decorative motifs that these objects are pieces of cavalry horse harness and thus nothing to do with sword baldrics. Baldrics incidentally, do not require any sort of device to break them open and then reconnect them and there is zero evidence for the Romans feeling the need for two-part baldrics.


Crispvs
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#17
Crispvs.

I would like to know by what authority or historic evidence you might have to prove that these type of Baldric fasteners were not used.
Brian Stobbs
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#18
Quote:Crispvs.

I would like to know by what authority or historic evidence you might have to prove that these type of Baldric fasteners were not used.

Well, we can not prove they were not used that way. But can you show any evidence suggesting they were? Neither can you, I guess.

As I also suggested many times before, these items are always found in context of horsegear (if the context is listed, that is). We even have them as part of horsegear phalera, so we can make up a good view of which straps made use of these fasterners, which one where out of one piece and which ones had a buckle.

http://www.rmo.nl/collectie/zoeken?objec...31%2f2.144
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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#19
See also B&C2, p83

"The baldric did not require a fastener of any kind, since it could simply be slipped over the head and shoulder, but attempts to identify cavalry harness fasteners as balric fittings persist, despite the obvious differences in decoration between infantry and cavalry equipment."

MC Bishop and JCN Coulston, Roman Military Equipment: From the Republic to the Fall of Rome (Second Edition), Oxbow, Oxford 2006


Crispvs
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#20
I would think that if there is no such thing as a baldric fastener, then it is high time some one explained that to Peter Connolly.
Where in his book "Greece and Rome at War" he does refer to one that came from Hoffheim, indeed he even shows drawings of it and how it functions
Brian Stobbs
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#21
"he does refer to one that came from Hoffheim"

That would be figures 19 and 20 in the illustration on page 232 of 'Greece and Rome at War', which were reproduced from figure 7 on page 51 of 'The Roman Army'.

Connolly published 'The Roman Army' in 1975 and published 'Greece and Rome at War' six years later in 1981, incorporating much of 'The Roman Army' within it, meaning that anything you see in either of these book was written or painted between thirty and thirty six years ago.

Now, I like Connolly's books and frequently use both of the ones mentioned (amongst others) as a very accessible way to introduce people to aspects of the Roman army. At the same time though I am always conscious of the age of the books and of how much has been discovered since they were written. Peter Connolly has told me himself (and several hundred others too, I am sure) that he no longer agrees with everything he put in those books and would welcome a chance to rewrite some parts and repaint some of the illustrations (one he mentioned in particular to me was the illustration on page 9 of 'The Roman Army' showing bent and twisted pila. He has since conducted his own experiments which have disproved the idea of the bendy pilum). Unfortunately he was unable to prevent it being re-published unchanged and as a consequence holds the distinction of being one of the few people to have successfully sued Robert Maxwell. However, this has not prevented it being reprinted unchanged several times since.

So, by all means, make use of Peter Connolly's work, but be aware of its age and of how much our (and his) knowledge has moved on since then.

Crispvs
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#22
I am very sure indeed that we can all do a bit of revision now and then on many subjects, however his thoughts about the soft pilum and just his own experiments about this should not be considered as final on that subject.
This does not of course remove the fact of the Hoffheim baldric fastener that was found which he mentiones no matter how old his books might be.
Brian Stobbs
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#23
Of course the Hoffheim strap junction was found, but that does not make it what it was not. It a genuine item, but like all others of its type it is a genuine piece of equine equipment.

The identification as an unnecessary addition to a sword baldric is a result of looking at objects outside their own context. Set in the context of others like it, its true function becomes clear.
As Jurjen said, these items are always decorated in a manner consistent with cavalry equipment decoration and where they are found with other items they are normally other harness mounts. As he also mentioned, there are a number of examples of these strap junctions being found still attached to harness phalerae. Their identification as strap junctions for horse harnesses is therefore very secure.

If you can find a single one which has been found in association with a sword we would all be very pleased to know about it.

The pilum is a subject for a separate thread but I would commend you to have a look at JRMES 12/13 (2001/2002) and Exercitus (Spring 2005).

Crispvs
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#24
Crispvs.

It would appear that you are stating the Hoffheim fastener as being an equine piece of equipment without putting forward any find context for this item, might it be that Connolly had a better knowledge of it's context to not only make his statment but also to draw it with it's function clearly shown.
Brian Stobbs
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#25
Brian,

I find it interesting that on one hand you hold up an illustration Connolly painted thirty six years ago as some sort of proof for your assertion but are happy to discount research he has conducted since on the pilum, without apparently having read it yourself.
Does this mean that pre-1982 Connolly is gospel and post-1981 Connolly fantasy? I don't think so and I don't think you think that either.

Whatever the case, I don't think Connolly himself believes these days that these objects are connected with sword suspension and hasn't done for a long time now. If you take a look at 'The Legionary', which he published in 1988, you will see that he has depicted all sword baldrics in one piece without connectors of any sort. Also, if you look at 'Tiberius Claudius Maximus The Cavalryman', which he also published in 1988, on page 30 he illustrates one of these strap junctions (as figures 8 and 9) along with other harness fittings and refers to it as a 'harness fastener'.

Now, it is true that I do not have a copy of the dig report detailing the context in which the Hoffheim fastener was found, but I suspect that you do not either. In the absence of the dig report I feel we are on much safer ground sticking with the wealth of evidence for it being a fastener from a horse harness than on the shaky idea of it being a decoration on a sword baldric, which finds no support in the depictional evidence either.

Therefore, it seems you are on your own in arguing for these fasteners to be associated with sword baldrics. By all means, if you have archaeological proof of a fastener like this being associated with a sword, then please do cite it. Believe me, everyone else here would be very interested to see it! All of us want to learn more and expand our knowledge. However, opinion on its own is no longer enough to justify an identification.

Incidentally, we are due to be up in Corbridge in late August. If you were passing that way it might be nice to see you and perhaps share a drink in the evening.

Crispvs
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#26
Crispvs.

I think for the time being I am prepared to agree to disagree on this subject for the moment, and as far as your kind invitation to meet at Corbridge that may well have to wait until I find out about hospital appointments.
For I have a couple of health situations to be resolved, and hopefully in a positive way of course.
Brian Stobbs
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#27
Brian,

I think that you are right that if we go on we will only start repeating ourselves, which would not be fair to other people reading the thread and in any case we have rather taken over Manuel's thread.
I sincerely hope that your health issues are resolved positively. It is probably ten years now since I saw you in the flesh and I sincerely hope that the next time we meet you look as well as you did that day.

All the best for getting a suitable appointment and a good resolution and recovery.

Crispvs
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#28
Crispvs.

I can't believe it's so long but since then I have found a bronze coin of Crispvs so if I make it Corbridge you will have one.
Brian Stobbs
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