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Christies Late Roman helmet: 1 or 2?
#46
If you look at the pictures and take you some time, you will see that the helmets are restored from fragments, and that some of the helmets is modern material. This would also explain why there are no "chunks" missing and why there are no dents etc.
I would´t dismiss the helmets so quickly as fakes, but would rather try to find out something about their context.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#47
You are right, Christian! Some kind of interpretative framework around these helmets would be nice indeed! Wink
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
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#48
Quote:If you look at the pictures and take you some time, you will see that the helmets are restored from fragments, and that some of the helmets is modern material. This would also explain why there are no "chunks" missing and why there are no dents etc.
I would´t dismiss the helmets so quickly as fakes, but would rather try to find out something about their context.
Thank you very much Christian, wise words. Do you think this is possible? The only material that we have so far are these photographs, and no information about past and present owners. I fear these helmets were dug up 'privately', but then again, there won't be many people who can restore such fragmented finds, I think..
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#49
Quote:If you look at the pictures and take you some time, you will see that the helmets are restored from fragments, and that some of the helmets is modern material. This would also explain why there are no "chunks" missing and why there are no dents etc.

I would agree, were it not for so many other "reconstructed" helmets that still retrain their original look of imperfection. As you notice when looking at Roman artifacts, up close they actually had all the markings of being hand made, with un-precise edges, border etc. (go figure Smile

These clearly re-constructed helmets look much different then the ones in discussion.


[attachment=8708]intercisai2-14.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=8709]intercisai2-17.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=8710]intercisai2-10.jpg[/attachment]

Quote:but would rather try to find out something about their context.

Agreed, but it appears to be lacking.


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Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
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#50
The Kaiser-Augst Ridge Helmet is my favorite.
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#51
Quote:I would agree, were it not for so many other "reconstructed" helmets that still retrain their original look of imperfection. As you notice when looking at Roman artifacts, up close they actually had all the markings of being hand made, with un-precise edges, border etc. (go figure Smile

These clearly re-constructed helmets look much different then the ones in discussion.

There are also several restored helmets which have just this look of perfection. If the helmet database would still be up, I would be able to give reference. Just check out several of the "Niederbieber" types. Also some of the more recent restoration reports of Roman helmets show similar situations. Think Hallaton Helmet, perhaps.

@ Robert: Maybe contact the auctioneers? Probably Balkan finds, I´d guess. Like some examples from the Guttmann collection. Again we learn how shitty objects without a context can actually be.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#52
Salvete!

A friend of mine has seen x-rays of one of these helmets some time ago and states that they showed no sign of a forgery or of any major reconstruction. I will see if I can organize them and post them here.
Regards,


Jens Horstkotte
Munich, Germany
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#53
Quote:There are also several restored helmets which have just this look of perfection.

Quote: x-rays of one of these helmets... showed no sign of a forgery or of any major reconstruction.

Great! I was just about convinced the other way, but there's hope yet, perhaps. :-)

This is a fascinating discussion, and I hope it yields a result. Jens - the x-rays would be excellent...
Nathan Ross
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#54
Forgive my ignorance but, if an intact genuine helmet and an artificially aged forgery were x-rayed, would the x-ray show any difference?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#55
Renatus:

It could show, that it is indeed a genuine find with parts of it renovated.
Mark - Legio Leonum Valentiniani
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#56
Quote:It could show, that it is indeed a genuine find with parts of it renovated.
That I understand but, if a genuine helmet was so well preserved as not to require renovation, what then?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#57
Augst would be a good comparison - the whole helmet is intact (well, almost). It's also a ridge helmet from the early to mid 4th century.

Another potential comparison could be the Deurne helmet or Berkasovo helmets.
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#58
Quote:Forgive my ignorance but, if an intact genuine helmet and an artificially aged forgery were x-rayed, would the x-ray show any difference?
No it can't. Some sort of analytical technique (which would necessarily need to be invasive) would be required that might indicate the presence of inappropriate or anachronistic components in an alloy. The Birdoswald Hercules figurine in the BM is one such object that has allegedly produced a dodgy alloy. Iron and steel are much harder to do than copper alloy, but I know some who are working on it.

Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#59
Quote:Deurne helmet

wouldn't be applicable since it is just the silver gilded shell with no iron inside. Perhaps the Nuremburg helmet or the spangenhelm from Eygypt (now in Leiden) which is in a complete iron state.
Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
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#60
You mean the Deir-el-Medinah? That's closer to a Spangenhelm than a ridge helmet, but it could work.

The Intercisa Helmets were pieced together from 20 different ones, so they probably wouldn't work. Umm.... hmm... Concesti may work as a comparison, but that's 5th century Romano-Hunnic, although everything but the neckguard is intact.
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