Christies Late Roman helmet: 1 or 2?

[Virilis]

Well my argument then would be that they are the same helmet. Such a small none functional detail like that piece of iron sticking out is highly unlikely to be duplicated on hand made items in my opinion. I just find that hard to believe. I guess unless we see some other pictures of the Christies one, or some of them side by side we'll never know

Markus, do you mean the little curvature at the end of the eyebrow? I think it is deliberately made and both sides on both helmets for decoration only...

[markusaurelius]

Markus, do you mean the little curvature at the end of the eyebrow? I think it is deliberately made and both sides on both helmets for decoration only...

Ya that was what I was referring to, but I guess you could argue that it is decorative. I guess from a statistical point of view, I just thought it would be odd that two so similar helmets would be found. Even the Koblenz Horde had significant variances and those were all found in the same area. But I doubt we'll ever know the full answer.....

[Robert Vermaat]

No, it's correct: on the original helmet, there IS a 'bulbous rim', but it stops a few inches short of the crest. On the 'white' helmet, the rim continous all the way to the crest.

I must retract this after looking at the original pictures - the rim continues all the way to the crest. So I must agree with matt about that 'black' picture.

[Medicus matt]

I must retract this after looking at the original pictures - the rim continues all the way to the crest. So I must agree with matt about that 'black' picture.

So it could be the same helmet, pre and post restoration?

[Virilis]

I must retract this after looking at the original pictures - the rim continues all the way to the crest. So I must agree with matt about that 'black' picture.

So it could be the same helmet, pre and post restoration?

I don`t think so, Matt. The hinges, the shape of the nasal guard etc. are still different...

[Crispianus]

Greetings, Whats the chance of two almost identical helmets made by the same workshop/hand turning up, and in such complete condition too... unlikely at best I think... not connected but you may find this article on fakes interesting...

http://www.archaeology.org/0905/etc/insider.html


:wink:

[Virilis]

BUMP!

Any new views and thoughts about the authenticity of this helmet? I might like to have a copy made of this helmet ...

[Conal]

One thing on the little extentions on the eyebrows they maybe the proto types of the more elaborate one on Vendel helmets.

I so want these to be genuine. They look so "right" where as fakes look "wrong" :unsure:

[Robert Vermaat]

I also would like to think of it as genuine, but I don't think we have absolute proof. However, it would be great to see this one reconstructed.
How about the neck guard attachment: riveted or strapped?

[Nathan Ross]

How about the neck guard attachment: riveted or strapped?

Is that not a hinge at the back? Or would that be too crazy?

I'd like to see this/these proved genuine too - certainly among the nicer late helmets. Most of the more wayward fakes I've seen tend to look horrible, so on aesthetic grounds alone I'm inclined to give these the benefit of the doubt!

[Renatus]

How about the neck guard attachment: riveted or strapped?

Is that not a hinge at the back? Or would that be too crazy?

In the side views, I definitely see signs of a hinge.

[Virilis]

BUMP! Any new views on this very interesting and controversial subject?

[Diocle]

I was always fascinated by this helmet its so rounded and enveloping shape is absolutely beautiful .... probably too much beautiful to be real ....

I noticed that the ridge's termination of the two (supposed two) helmets actually is absolutely different.

But I'm writing because what is impressive, it is the quality of the patina of rust ... it's so homogeneous .... meanwhile in historical artifacts frequently the the oxidation of the iron is concentrated more in some particular points dependent on the conditions and the particular position in which the finding was lying in the ground, but in this case the patina is surprisingly omogeneous and the nails and hinges are all preserved also them covered by this gentle patina of rust ... In my opinion this is simply impossible, not even a WWII helmet would have a so homogeneous patina.

Maybe an analysis of the quality of the iron would tell us something more about the origins of the piece(s) ... the mineralogical composition of the Roman iron was pretty different from the modern iron.

[Virilis]

Good points, Carlo! I also like how the helmet encloses the face, the impression these late roman helmets make is awesome and haunting. Btw, what do you think about my theory on the "Heteny" thread?:

"The thing why I thought Christies helmet is a fake is this: the nose guard doesn`t resemble any surviving examples of late roman nose guards. In fact the nose guard resembles only one reconstruction, which has no basis on real life examples. The shape is quite the same, also having a "ridge" which I have never seen on a real life example. The basis of this is the [i]reconstructed and hypotethical nose guard which you see usually attached to the Budapest jewelled helmet (it has also the original nose guard, which is rarely seen attached to it). I think the person who made the Christie`s helmet copied this fantasy nose guard, thinking it is based on a real life example. Gotcha! [/i]"

Then again the Deurne and Berkasovo helmets have a slight ridge on their nose guards :errr: ...

[Nathan Ross]

the quality of the patina of rust ... it's so homogeneous .... an analysis of the quality of the iron would tell us something more about the origins of the piece(s) ... the mineralogical composition of the Roman iron was pretty different from the modern iron.

Looks to me as if both helmets have been painted with something, perhaps (if they're genuine) to cover up some major restorations? So the patina might not be too visible. But a proper scientific analysis of the metal would be the only way to determine what we're really looking at here.