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Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes
#30
Quote:
Quote:The statements Mr. Wink makes in this article are about the hasta, but nevertheless... romanarmy.net/hasta.htm

I just read this, and its good, but I always find it interesting how our experience shapes our knowledge and lack of it- myself included. The author has a number of misconceptions about limitations of overhand spear use. For example, he believes that you need to "toss" the spear in the air in order to move from a rest to fighting position. This has been shown not to be true once you know how to hold a dory at rest and how to bring it down to fight. Stephanos's group has good video of this. Also, the notion that you can't push overhand is flawed. Every boatmen who poled a boat does so. You simply lock the wrist against your shoulder and push forward.

Thighs are quite easy targets and feet not exceptional with an 8' dory- maybe he is used to shorter spears? His whole description of holding a dory at the midpoint is not supported by vases, that clearly show them to be balanced to the rear, so an 8' spear is a 5 1/2' spear. Of course not actually killing anyone renders the fact that he may be generating only 1/4 of the power of the overhand strike less of a problem than in real combat.

Finally many of the lateral slashing movements he describes are far more important when facing single foes or in opened order than in a tight phalanx. Hoplite spears were not foils, they had the aspis for defence if the spear was knocked off line, and a foes who stepped alone into the beaten-zone between lines would not be long for the world assuming he could extricate himself from the shields of his mates faster than I could recover my spear. Moving the spear forward and back and striking with force, both ahead and into the men to the left and right over a range of motion only possible with overhand, is the goal of the hoplite. Perhaps this is harder for us to imagine since we are reared on tales of swashbuckling duels of intertwined swords, but they were raised on tales of men who aimed one good blow of exceptional power at their foes, then recovered behind their shields. The dory had more in common with a javelin that you did not let go than with an extremely long fencing foil.

He indeed speaks about the hasta, a Roman short spear, which is not much taller than the wielder of it. Also these soldiers he talks about use the clipeus or oval shield, which is narrower than the hoplite shield - when the spear is knocked off the line, this is more dangerous. His statements are more correct for these short spears, for example his remark about length which is lost when using an overhand grip. As far as I know there were no counterweights on this type of spear, so holding it in the middle would be necessary when using an overhand grip.

It's not a good comparison, but I still thought I'd post it.. Better had not may be.:-)
Valete,
Titvs Statilivs Castvs - Sander Van Daele
LEG XI CPF
COH VII RAET EQ (part of LEG XI CPF)

MA in History
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Messages In This Thread
Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by rrgg - 04-14-2011, 10:45 AM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by Macedon - 04-15-2011, 06:06 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by Macedon - 04-22-2011, 01:23 AM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by rrgg - 04-22-2011, 03:38 AM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by Paralus - 04-23-2011, 05:32 AM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by rrgg - 04-23-2011, 01:24 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by Macedon - 04-26-2011, 01:48 AM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by rrgg - 04-26-2011, 12:50 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by Macedon - 04-26-2011, 02:54 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by George - 04-27-2011, 04:45 AM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by rrgg - 04-27-2011, 01:59 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by George - 04-27-2011, 08:04 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by George - 04-27-2011, 08:29 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by George - 04-27-2011, 11:05 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by Titvs Statilivs Castvs - 04-28-2011, 12:27 AM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by Paralus - 04-28-2011, 04:00 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by abou - 01-02-2014, 08:02 PM
Re: Depictions of Underarm Phalanxes - by Macedon - 01-02-2014, 08:25 PM

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