04-27-2011, 08:04 PM
Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been. When I was talking about underarm fighting I meant with the grip actually at groin level and the spear projecting from under the shield (not over the shield or between shields). Not about underarm grip used from a position over the shoulder.
Also, we have to define compactness of the phalanx. It is obvious that when in compact (hyperpykne) formation, things work differently than when in normal, hoplite fighting closed order (pykne). Spearfighting would have been mainly fought in pykne order, which allows the hoplite (legionary etc) to have enough space to wield his spear whether in an underarm or overarm position (not grip). If the phalanxes tried to close to each other and the hoplites closing up to their frontmen, resting their shields on their backs, hoplites would anyways change to their shorter shortswords in order to try and inflict wounds from over the shield. Spears here would be used only by the back ranks since the first rankers would not be able to actually hit at the enemy first rankers with their spears. Underarm fighting in hyperpykne (not the norm) order would be more difficult than in a Macedonian formation, basically because of the shield size difference. Do not forget that Macedonian phalanxes were renowned for using the hyperpykne order (some attributing its very invention to Philip) and they were surely using very long spears with sarauters (which were much more useful in sarissas than in spears because of the balance they added). Sarissas also had to be swung back and forth and the hyperpykne order is attested as one pechis for each man, about 45 cm or 18 inches. Now, if there was no problem swinging the sarissas back and forth, I can see no real problem in swinging spears practically the same way. Unfortunately I have never been able to experiment such things with many reenactors, but with 6-8 men I have seen that making thrust with the spear under the shield towards the enemy's unseen weak spots (you cannot actually see where you are aiming, so you have to be able to understand where the point of your spear is every moment, something that you can easily get accustomed to with experience). Of course it may seem difficult at first but try to work on this and you will see there are ways to make space for the spear to be able to do these maneuvers. And, as I already mentioned, a saroteur was not a knife, if you do not pull the spear back with force there is no way you can injure anyone and even if you do that it cannot be compared with the force of a forward thrust (although there would be no reason why you should do such quick pull movements).
By the way, has anyone studies how 5-6 ranks of sarisophoroi in hyperpykne order could actually project their sarissas over the first ranker holding their sarissas underarm? The 8 palm shields of course played some role, but even these could be locked leaving a very limited space for 4-5 sarissas from the back to somehow be in the right angles to injure opponents and protect your own... This is something I always wanted to reenact but lacked the resources....
Oh... and.... a reactivation of Macedon... yet again.... for the third time in this forum please?
Also, we have to define compactness of the phalanx. It is obvious that when in compact (hyperpykne) formation, things work differently than when in normal, hoplite fighting closed order (pykne). Spearfighting would have been mainly fought in pykne order, which allows the hoplite (legionary etc) to have enough space to wield his spear whether in an underarm or overarm position (not grip). If the phalanxes tried to close to each other and the hoplites closing up to their frontmen, resting their shields on their backs, hoplites would anyways change to their shorter shortswords in order to try and inflict wounds from over the shield. Spears here would be used only by the back ranks since the first rankers would not be able to actually hit at the enemy first rankers with their spears. Underarm fighting in hyperpykne (not the norm) order would be more difficult than in a Macedonian formation, basically because of the shield size difference. Do not forget that Macedonian phalanxes were renowned for using the hyperpykne order (some attributing its very invention to Philip) and they were surely using very long spears with sarauters (which were much more useful in sarissas than in spears because of the balance they added). Sarissas also had to be swung back and forth and the hyperpykne order is attested as one pechis for each man, about 45 cm or 18 inches. Now, if there was no problem swinging the sarissas back and forth, I can see no real problem in swinging spears practically the same way. Unfortunately I have never been able to experiment such things with many reenactors, but with 6-8 men I have seen that making thrust with the spear under the shield towards the enemy's unseen weak spots (you cannot actually see where you are aiming, so you have to be able to understand where the point of your spear is every moment, something that you can easily get accustomed to with experience). Of course it may seem difficult at first but try to work on this and you will see there are ways to make space for the spear to be able to do these maneuvers. And, as I already mentioned, a saroteur was not a knife, if you do not pull the spear back with force there is no way you can injure anyone and even if you do that it cannot be compared with the force of a forward thrust (although there would be no reason why you should do such quick pull movements).
By the way, has anyone studies how 5-6 ranks of sarisophoroi in hyperpykne order could actually project their sarissas over the first ranker holding their sarissas underarm? The 8 palm shields of course played some role, but even these could be locked leaving a very limited space for 4-5 sarissas from the back to somehow be in the right angles to injure opponents and protect your own... This is something I always wanted to reenact but lacked the resources....
Oh... and.... a reactivation of Macedon... yet again.... for the third time in this forum please?
