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Historical accuracy in fiction
#16
What matters more perhaps too me is a good believable story with a good script that will keep me entertained historical accuracy is an unexpected bonus, if I want to read history well I have plenty of books and many are well written.
The 13th Warrior I do like very much its a bit grating at times historically but I like the overall feel of it.. in truth though if someone asked me for a good Historical movie I'd have to say something like "Master and Commander"... of ancient themes "Centurion" would come top of my list, but from a military standpoint its not just bloody but bloody awfull, but overall I thought a good tale never the less.
I think if your a film maker and you can suspend disbelief for the majority of the audience for the time it takes to watch the film, and said audience can walk out at the end with a sense of satisfaction and enjoyment.. then you have achieved your goal.

Best Regards
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#17
Quote: Interesting that you mentionthese two movies, as Gladiatior manages to not show a single propper Gladiator Armatura, using mostly medieval armor props, while the Viking leader of the 13 is actually wearing a Gladiator helmet he must have found during his pillaging somewhere :-)
Even worse, 'Gladiator' had a score of Scandinavian helmets lying around when the gladiators pick their equipemnt, so maybe there was some mixup between the supplies of that movie and '13th Warrior'? :twisted:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#18
A very interesting thread - thanks to all who've posted.

It's been an interesting journey for me as an historical novelist, from my first novel to the books I write now.

In my debut, I chose to leave in some inaccuracies for the sake of glamour (the 'thumbs down' was one example) while also making more than one error that I only found out about afterwards. At the time, I thought, 'Who cares about a few mistakes?' To some extent, I still think that. After all, it's all about a good story. Part of me would like to go back and rewrite some details of some books now, though.

My opinion on historical accuracy has changed over time, partly thanks to my fellow RATers! As I've come to know more about Rome (and to realise how little I still know), my love of the period and desire to portray as accurate a picture as I can has meant that I do my utmost to use as many real life details/archaeological/documented 'facts' as possible. So, in my most recent novel, in which the battles of Trasimene and Cannae are described, I visited both sites, Cannae more than once. I bought all the kit of an hastatus, and walked hundreds of kilometres in it. I read all the ancient texts and modern textbooks on the period that I could find, and then I wrote my novel.

But the bottom line is that it still needs to have a good story, or people won't buy it, read it, tell their friends. Hopefully, it's possible both to have a good story, and to be 'accurate'.
Ben Kane, bestselling author of the Eagles of Rome, Spartacus and Hannibal novels.

Eagles in the Storm released in UK on March 23, 2017.
Aguilas en la tormenta saldra en 2017.


www.benkane.net
Twitter: @benkaneauthor
Facebook: facebook.com/benkanebooks
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#19
I really enjoyed the 13th Warrior despite the anachronisms. Yes, the gladiator helmet was a bit much, so was the 16th century plate Buliwyf wears in a couple of scenes. The rest of the oddball gear I was willing to led slide because Ibn Fadlan encounters the Vikings on the Volga (?) in Pecheneg country. My reading was that they had spent the last several years soldiering as mercenaries in the Byzantine Emperor's army and might have picked up gear almost anywhere in the East and the Black Sea region. What the movie nailed perfectly was the Viking attitude: they're total fatalists and laugh like hell when all hope is lost.
Pecunia non olet
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#20
Quote:Part of me would like to go back and rewrite some details of some books now, though.

I've often wondered about that. Surely Patrick O'Brian, for example, by the time he reached book 19 or 20 in his series, must have discovered something in his ongoing voluminous research that contradicted the accuracy of something he'd written in book 2 or 3? Would he have gone back and changed it if he could?

I would guess not - partly because by that point the 'world' he had created had developed its own rules anyway (strict history sort of goes out the window after about book 8!), and partly because his writing is so fanatically detailed that that nobody would notice if he'd scandalised his tophamper backwards in book 4...

Does historical fiction require a sort of contract between reader and writer, perhaps? If you set your story in a particular era, you're obliged to follow the rules of that era and not mess things about or make lazy mistakes - that would be treating the reader with contempt. So the reader promises to suspend their disbelief that 1st-century Roman legionaries actually talked like 21st-century TA recruits, if the author promises not to try and make them believe in flame-throwing hand-catapults, or make the Colosseum appear in AD60, or name their characters Marcus Maximus Rebellus, or Isis Cornelia Glauco, or whatever.

Unless, of course, the writer makes it plain that they're actually creating a form of fantasy or a knowingly literary spoof or something...
Nathan Ross
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#21
Quote:My problem is when the promoters of the movie make a fuss about the "historical advisors" they had on set and how closely they stuck to "historical facts" when it is clearly evident that the advisors were completely ignored. That's why Gladiator annoyed the hell out of me and 13th Warrior is one of my favourite movies.

Ah! Well my actual *professional* interest is primarily in the Islamic world, and when Antonio Banderas made a "Damascus" sword I took it very ill, as though anyone off of the street could do the work of such a highly-skilled swordsmith; and he made a curved sword, which only came in with the Mongols. The re-enactment of ibn Fadhlan's description of the funeral was excellent, however, and when I watched the movie again some years later I loved it! Sometimes you need to see it twice to get over the inaccuracies and enjoy the story!
Robert Mason D.Phil (Oxon)
World Cultures, Royal Ontario Museum, 100 Queen's Park, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 2C6, Canada.
Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations, University of Toronto, 4 Bancroft Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 1C1, Canada.
E-mail: [email protected]
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#22
A very interesting topic indeed!

But it all depends on which hairs you want to split. Are you looking for Fiction? Fact? or Truth?

Fiction is in the realm of the imaginary or even visionary.
Fact... is not always evidence and evidence is not always fact. It can be an assumption. Or an "Educated guess" And that Educated Guess is only as good as the education behind it... But I think I am guessing?
Truth is ALWAYS Truth... If it was true 6,000 years ago... it is still true today.

I understand the thought about accuracy... But to put Historical... Accuracy... and Fiction in the same line seems to be like an oxymoron. Jumbo Shrimp... Semi Truck Driver... LOL
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#23
I define "historical fiction" as a fictional story set in the historical past. It could be a fictional character's involvement in a historical event or a historical character's involvement in a fictional event but the setting and background is in the real world in a real period of history. It works for me if the characters and the setting feel genuine for that region and time period.

Colleen McCulloch's Masters of Rome series would be what I would consider a good example of historical fiction.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#24
Quote:Ah! Well my actual *professional* interest is primarily in the Islamic world, and when Antonio Banderas made a "Damascus" sword I took it very ill, as though anyone off of the street could do the work of such a highly-skilled swordsmith; and he made a curved sword, which only came in with the Mongols. The re-enactment of ibn Fadhlan's description of the funeral was excellent, however, and when I watched the movie again some years later I loved it! Sometimes you need to see it twice to get over the inaccuracies and enjoy the story!
I had the same problems: the myth that viking swords were heavy and unwieldy, the stupid idea that you could turn a straight sword into a curved sword with a grinder, viking draft horses, no pasture for the wendol horses, where did all the bears come from to get that many bear costumes? But I could ignore all that because it was a fun movie that didn't pretend to be a portrayal of historical events. It was a Scandinavian version of the Magnificent Seven with a few historical bits thrown in, such as the hólmgang duel and Ibn Fadlan's observations of the Rus.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#25
Dan Howard wrote: " It was a Scandinavian version of the Magnificent Seven with a few historical bits thrown in, such as the hólmgang duel and Ibn Fadlan's observations of the Rus."

So I guess "The 13th Warrior" could be a scandinavian remake of Akira Kurosawas "Seven Samurai" an excellent film and though entirely Fictional pretty good I think on period Historical accuracy....

Though I think that 13th has more in common with Beowulf with the monster grendel and his mother being reduced to a "Human" enemy the Vendel Berserkers and probarbly more believable for it, perhaps with a bit of the north sagas thrown in for good measure or maybe more then a bit... on the whole I think the theme of the story could be one that an early medieval scadinavian would recognise and appreciate.

Best Regards
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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