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Optio’s staff
#1
Salve!

Working on reconstructions of an Augustan optio and tesserarius my illustrator/co-author and I ran into another problem:

Both ranks sported a staff as a rank insignia and to keep soldiers in line when acting as file closers.
But what materials were these staffs made of and what was their colour? The staff itself was probably made of wood, but the knob? Metal or wood as well?

Any known sources available?

Grateful for all assistance I like to hear your opinion on this subject.

Cheers
Andreas Strassmeir
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#2
There is a ca. 3 year old thread on RAT on this topic. I cannot link to it but you can find it by enterin "optio staff knob" into google. One particularly interesting post is by "Susanna":

"I have seen three unpublished founds of such brass-balls, one of them was definetly worn by an optio, because it was in a sarkophag together with an inscription therein which said that he was such. The other two we cannot say for sure.
It was hollow indeed and you had small openings between bands of bronze, something like a circulare cage.

I was asked to study that one because it had to do with sound and music. Inside that cage was a bronzebell, ringing whenever the staff was moved. Very loud indeed, reminded me of staffs still used in military music from the led person up today.

Must not be that all this staffs have been of this kind of course. but would make sense while marching and having a rythm and somebody in front making it clear for eyes and ears.

Susanna"
Regards,


Jens Horstkotte
Munich, Germany
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#3
Hi Jens

Thanks for the feedback!
I found the mentioned thread – was very helpful, though.
The thing with the bell inside the knob is really interesting. I wish I had more information on this item, source, find spot etc.

Regards
Andreas Strassmeir
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#4
Quote:[A] staff ... to keep soldiers in line when acting as file closers.

There's actually no evidence at all that the staff was used like this - or that it was even carried on the battlefield. It's just a guess based on nothing more than a couple of references to infantry sergeants from about 1700 years later happening to use their half-pikes like this.
Hello, my name is Harry.
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#5
no evidence - I agree to a certain extent: at least no conclusive evidence. The evidence is circumstantial at best.
Facts:
a. optios carried staffs (tombstones)
b. optios acted as file closers in battle (literary source)
c. in the Roman army similar “rank insignia” had also a practical implementation (centurion’s vitis for disciplining soldiers)
d. a staff with a blunt end would be ideal to push soldiers back in line


So, in my opinion it is not too far fetched to assume that the optio’s staff was indeed used in such manner …
… but of course it is also possible that the optio carried a pilum in battle!
:wink:
Andreas Strassmeir
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#6
Maybe I'm just a non-romantic, but I thought the staff was used to help soldiers measure the distance for open and closed order in ranks. Six and three feet (Roman feet) respectively.

Pushing frightened or panicky soldiers back into line with a stick doesn't sound like a good career move when you think about it.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#7
An interesting thought – the staff as a measuring stick – why not!

But is there any source to back up that the staff was indeed 6 feet long and that it was used in this manner? Judging by the tombstones a length of 6 feet doesn’t seem too unlikely.

I would be very grateful for any sources so I can use this information in my book.


Cheers
Andreas
Andreas Strassmeir
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#8
Well, in this view, it's interesting to name a major 'stereotype', which is the way we use terms like 'centurio' and 'optio'. We all seem to use them in a way they can be used within a re-enactment unit, namely as the first and second man in charge. However, ones centurio job shouldn't have to reflect that of the other.

Especially in this discussion, where the 'measuring' use is discussed it is interesting to note that there are sources (which I can't name at the moment, unfortunately) which mention that agrimensori (surveyors) held the rank of optio. This doesn't have to mean they were the type of optio as we tent to use the term, but of course, it could also be that in battle this same agrimensor had the 'regular' optio role.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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#9
What is the evidence for a Tesserarius carrying a staff, and acting as a file-closer?

my research has been contradictory at best, but I haven't been able to find a primary source supporting it, only current research/theory.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#10
Call me impoverished. No brass bells, or hollow balls, although I did briefly entertain the idea of a "hame ball", which is the brass ball that fits on the end of a wagon-horse collar.

I just used a white-painted wooden ball over a plain barn red painted wood shaft. But it is six Roman feet long, which is 66 US inches.

Tonight, I plan to add a brass band under the ball and at the base, to help prevent splitting. I put a large dowel in the ball and the center of the shaft. I don't think that would break, but -- and at the bottom, it seems you always lose a shard of wood some way or another. Besides, it will look better and more finished. Farby? Lemme know. Will send up another picture when it's ready.


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M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#11
Very interesting topic.
I have tried to enter in google "optio staff knob", but I did not find any "Susanna" opinion or whatever.

It would be very interesting to ask to Susanna some additional infos.
Can you post the link to that message?
Luca Bonacina
Provincia Cisalpina - Mediolanum
www.cisalpina.net
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#12
I was glad to find this topic. Even though there seems to be conflicting opinons on the Optio staff almost every book you read has drawings of the Optio with a staff or says that he carried one. What you cant seem to find is much information on constructing one, actually about the only thing I have been able to find on construction is M. Demetrius post (nice job by the way) or someone trying to sell you a stick for like $300. The knob at the end seems to be the main issue.

Does anyone one else have any pictures of ones they constructed and info on where they came by the knobs?

Thanks,

Mike Young
Mike Young
<Always remember that there is always someone with a
bigger and better army who wants to be Emperor>
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#13
Quote:Can you post the link to that message?

I hope this works:

Optio Staff
Regards,


Jens Horstkotte
Munich, Germany
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#14
I have used two different hastile in the field. One having a solid metal ball with the staff about 6 feet long, to my shoulders. The other had a wooden ball about the size of a soft ball, including ball, came to the same height as I am, about 6'8". I have found having the wooden ball hastile a lot more user fiendly for me to use. According to the older post and what has been said here the hollow metal ball makes a lot more sense!

I do find it funny that the there would have been a small ball on the inside of the hollow ball. It does make some sense, Roman helmets allow you to hear things but to a point it is still selective hearing.

I have also read some where that escapes me at the moment that other identifing marks of an optio is a ring and a wax tablet. The ring so he can sign tablets with orders and the tablet to write the orders of the day.
Joshua B. Davis

Marius Agorius Donatus Minius Germanicus
Optio Centuriae
Legio VI FFC, Cohors Flavus
[url:vat9d7f9]http://legvi.tripod.com[/url]

"Do or do not do, their is no try!" Yoda
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