Ist Cohort Size

[Correus]

Ave!

I know the 1st Cohort was double strength but with only 5 centuriae instead of the normal 6. However, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 1st Cohort was the one all the specialist troops were attached to, i.e. HQ staff, Medical, Engineering, etc. When those were removed the fighting strength was closer to that of the other 9 cohorts.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Thanks,
Correus

[Titius_VI_Legion]

From what I have read, the first cohort was made up of five double-strength centuries totaling around 800 men. The first cohort had many extra men like clerks, engineers, and other specialists who did not usually fight, and the centurion of its first century automatically being the most senior in the legion. I have also read that only the most experienced battle hardened legionnaires were in the 1st cohort, and were used as reserve troops. So this is conflicting information from different sources.

[Correus]

This is what I've heard as well.

[Matthew Amt]

The problem with the "supernumerary" theory is that the clerks and engineers *did* fight, didn't they? Those were immunes posts, and immunes were only exempt from things like road building and other dirty jobs. As far as we know, they still did daily weapon training and were considered combat soldiers. After all, as they rose through the ranks,they'd be back in combat positions such as tessararius, cornicen, signifer, and even centurion. So I think the idea of non-combatants in the first cohort is a modern idea, and not a good one. (I *think*!)

Matthew

[Correus]

Matthew -

I was wondering about immunes as well.

When it comes to immunes I can see what you mean. One would think that there would be a small amount of these scattered throughout each Cohort though. I'm no expert, but that would make sense, each Cohort would probably have a clerk, medic etc.

For the 1st Cohort I could see the immunes being the head/lead ones for the entire legion, kind of like an HQ staff of some sorts.

Here's another question along the same lines....

Is there any rhyme or reason the 1st Cohort was made up the way it was? The main thing that strikes me as 'odd' is that the compliment was doubled, but there were only 5 centuriae. I'm probably missing it somewhere, but has a reason been noted for this? I'm not disputing that they did this, it just seems odd that they did since they were so regimented about everything else.

Correus

[john roberts]

In the modern American military (at least until recently) each company would have a platoon that included the cooks, clerks, supply personnel and so forth. They were not assigned standard combat duties, but were expected to be able to fight if necessary. The Marine Corps took pride in the principle that "every man is a rifleman." They took this very seriously and clerks would type with their rifles propped against their desks, the cooks kept their rifles in the kitchen for instant access. Maybe the 1st Cohort was organized on this principle, with at least a part of it kept in reserve but expected to fight at need.

[Forty-One]

I've also heard it postulated that the extra men in the first cohort were the corps of retained veterans, who may have been integrated into the legion sometime before the Flavian period. Before this they had their own separate units under their own standards.

[Correus]

I think Matthew and John are more than likely correct.

Any idea as to why the Romans would have created the structure of the 1st Cohort the way they did?

Correus

[M. Demetrius]

Well, you've got to put those logistical guys somewhere, and all in one place seems a good choice. There may be some reason other than that, maybe dating back to some dictum from the Republic for all I know...but it makes sense to keep them all together. Having said that, to quote Matt Amt, "Making sense to us doesn't mean making sense to them. These are people who build brass hinges into flexible leather straps." :lol:

[Correus]

I understand about keeping the logistics people together in one unit. What I'm more curious about is the structure. Why 5 centuriae instead of the normal 6, why double the amount of troops, that sort of thing.

[Matthew Amt]

Having said that, to quote Matt Amt, "Making sense to us doesn't mean making sense to them. These are people who build brass hinges into flexible leather straps." :lol:

Geez, don't listen to THAT guy, he's full of--wait a sec...

Well, you've got to put those logistical guys somewhere, and all in one place seems a good choice. There may be some reason other than that, maybe dating back to some dictum from the Republic for all I know...but it makes sense to keep them all together.

But the clerks and craftsmen are all just drawn from their centuries, and there's no indication they were removed from those units' rosters. Plus, clerical work is, to be sure, a non-combat duty, while the century in *any* cohort is a combat unit. So when you need a clerk, you go to the principia, and there they'll be. In battle, they'd be with their tentmates in line (except of course for artillery crews, stretcher bearers, etc.).

The legionary cohort was not an administrative unit, as far as I've heard. There'd be paperwork at the century level, and any of that that couldn't be handled by the centurion, optio, tesserarius, or signifer, or one of their slaves, might have been tasked to an immunis, or maybe just to someone literate enough to handle it but hadn't made the step to immunis yet. Above that, there is only the principia/HQ. Likewise, smithing and other crafts were done in the legion's workshops, and in battle those men would be mustered with their original centuries. There's no real point in "keeping them all together", since they are where they need to be when they're doing their non-combat things.

If the first cohort is seen as any sort of elite unit, and it certainly had the highest status, then it doesn't make sense to fill it up with men who are valued for skills other than combat.

Plus, and here's the kicker, when a centurion was promoted, *did he take his troops with him?* Centuries are named for their centurion! Does the unit have to be renamed whenever there is a promotion? That means a lot of scraping the boss's name off a lot of gear, and I haven't seen a lot of evidence for that. Or did the men gain status along with their centurion?

Since we don't even know the answers to questions like these, it seems pointless to speculate on further organizational details, let alone try to figure out WHY those wacked-out loonies did something...

Valete!

Matthew

[Correus]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Your right of course Matthew. It's one of my faults that when I get a question like this I keep beating at it till I can't beat it anymore, or until someone pokes me with a pilum.

Now you know why I usually just lurk and keep my mouth shut.

Times like this I wish for a time machine!

Correus

[M. Demetrius]

I'll bet you could book a lot of reservations on that time machine! :!:

[Crispvs]

Where do we get the information that the first cohort was made of five double strength centuries? I know it appears in a lot of books but what is it based on? Is there an ancient literary source for it?
I was under the impression that it was an extrapolation of the fact that some excavated legionary fortresses have turned up a single group of barrack blocks that seems to be arranged differently to the others and seem to suggest a division into five larger or ten smaller divisions. I was also under the impression that this feature had not so far been found at all excavated fortresses and so may only have applied in a small number of legions.

Can anyone enlighten me further on this?

Crispvs

[Correus]

Where do we get the information that the first cohort was made of five double strength centuries? I know it appears in a lot of books but what is it based on? Is there an ancient literary source for it?

Good Point. I would be interested as well.

I seem to recall a couple of sources, but it has been so many years ago I can't remember them.

Correus