the eagle

[Robert Vermaat]

To have taken a subtle, mature novel for children and turned it into a clumsy childish movie for adults is no achievement.

Wow, that's a great comment. Can I use it as a quote?

The DVD does have some bonus features though - including their original ending (even worse, if possible, than the one they finally used)

As the chance of me either buying, borrowing or viewing an official dvd of this [..] will be extremely small, could you describe that original ending? The one they chose was indeed horrible (to me it looked much like the ending of that 'Rambo in Vietnam' movie). of course the ending of Centurio was also horrid.

[Nathan Ross]

Can I use it as a quote?

By all means!

could you describe that original ending? The one they chose was indeed horrible

Certainly. The DVD also has a deleted scene in which Marcus races chariots with the Britons at the beginning - it's from the book, but doesn't really add much.

Meanwhile, the original ending - anyone who has yet to see the film might want to avert their eyes... :neutral:

Following the battle in the stream with the hordes of Seal People, our heroes and the surviving old bikers gather around the funeral pyre of Guern (Mark Strong). In the current ending, Marcus places the small carved wooden eagle pendant on the pyre. In the original, however, he also places the actual eagle on the pyre as well...

Cut to Esca doing a 'dude, WTF?' face, as well he might.

Marcus then gives a flat and mumbly oration to the effect that the eagle should not return to Rome, as its true place is there with the souls of those brave men from both sides (!) who have fought for it (or something). He then torches the pyre.

Marcus and Esca stand about in the smoke while ponderous music plays. The eagle proceeds to melt, rather like it's made of butter. None of the old bikers/legionaries are seen craftily calculating how easy it might be to turn a mass of melted gold into ready cash, or beans, or whatever they use as currency in the Wild North...

Smoke ascends to the heavens... Cut to Marcus and Esca strolling across the endless craggy hills, discussing what they'll do now they've got rid of that pesky eagle... The camera pans back to show the line of Hadrian's Wall snaking over the far horizon.

Marcus: So, you're a free man now. Any ideas where you'll go?
Esca: Beats me, dude.
Marcus: Hey, Spain's nice. We could go to Spain and raise horses!
Esca: Horses? Not a bad plan, amigo! Kinda thirsty just now though...
Marcus: I've got a couple of cold ones back at the villa...
Esca: Now you're talking!

The pair of them wander off towards the wall, chuckling and slapping each other on the back, as the camera pulls away and pans off over the hills... fade to black... thunderous music... roll titles...

And that, I assure you, was the original ending of the film (with a few additions ) The director said, on the audio commentary, that after the initial showing several people felt 'disappointed' that M&E had melted the eagle, and would have preferred something more heroic - and so an alternative ending was sketched out on an envelope and shot in an afternoon (or something - I'm making assumptions here!).

But thinking back, I'm not sure which ending was worse... :lol:

[Narukami]

[quote][quote="Nathan Ross" post=293505]To have taken a subtle, mature novel for children and turned it into a clumsy childish movie for adults is no achievement.[/quote] Wow, that's a great comment. Can I use it as a quote?

That is a great summation Nathan -- wish I'd been so cogent in my review of the film. :oops:

As for the endings (either one) they are both horrid. "To honor the fallen of both sides ..." Just one more example of this film imposing 20th century sentiments on ancient people. Of course, this does not come as much of a surprise considering that the directors of both films (Centurion and The Eagle) spoke about their desire to use their respective films to comment on current events. :roll:

One can only wonder if the director of the new Spartacus feature film will do the same thing.

:?

Narukami

[Narukami]

To have taken a subtle, mature novel for children and turned it into a clumsy childish movie for adults is no achievement.

Wow, that's a great comment. Can I use it as a quote?

That is a great summation Nathan -- wish I'd been so cogent in my review of the film. :oops:

As for the endings (either one) they are both horrid. "To honor the fallen of both sides ..." Just one more example of this film imposing 20th century sentiments on ancient people. Of course, this does not come as much of a surprise considering that the directors of both films (Centurion and The Eagle) spoke about their desire to use their respective films to comment on current events. :roll:

One can only wonder if the director of the new Spartacus feature film will do the same thing.

:?

Narukami

[Paul Elliott]

You don't even need to ask .... you know modern politics will get in there somewhere...

[Robert Vermaat]

But thinking back, I'm not sure which ending was worse... :lol:

Well, for me there’s no question about it – this one I would have preferred to the one they eventually used! I mean, think of it, in the book the eagle was buried under the floor of Marcus’ uncle’s villa in Calleva, after receiving the final ‘thumbs down’ (yeah I know, but that’s from the book) about the resurrection of the legion. The ditched ending seems a LOT closer to that than to the haughty dumping of the eagle on the desk of an arrogant governor (or whatever they made of him)!

Of course, the whole ‘last stand of the Biker Men’ in the stream was idiotic however you look at it, and the death of Guern the gazillionth break with the original text, but at least the eagle was ‘spared’ that Rambo-like ‘heroic’ dump on the desk of the army.

At least this ending was less horrid than the one they used (or the ‘kill the survivors’ ending of Centurion).

[Nurglitch]

Some random musings after watching the movie:

A few random thoughts:
- British warriors receive overly specialised training. They learn to jump very high, probably from very young age. They will not think twice about vaulting over 3m palisade of sharpened stakes or somersaulting over a gladius blade. But once the jump is made, they are a bit lost as to what to do next. Suggested course of action: institute a Britannia-wide sports program, run some Olympic games. The Brits will be happily jumping over things and will stop rebelling.
- Roman scutum shield may need an overhaul. The soldiers carry it everywhere apparently to provide proper springboards for the enemy warriors. Once a scutum has been used to launch a Brit into a somersault over the Roman line it becomes a bit useless and in fact stands in a way of proper kung-fu. Thus Roman soldiers discard it immediately after a successful launch of an enemy warrior. Suggestion: a smaller, more rectangular in shape and springier shield would serve this purpose just as well, whilst being more portable and easier to manufacure.
- Gladius is extremelly effective at cutting through things. The reason for that is that the blade vibrates all the time (you can tell by low humming noise the gladius makes even if held perfectly immobile). I assume the power source is in the grip. It does not yet cut through enemy weapons though. Suggestion: increase the blade's vibration frequency (may require additional or stronger power source). Distribute to soldiers some decent ear mufflers as the higher vibration frequency may produce an irritating whine.
- The slave Eska has developed an interesting weapon, completely new in the land. It looks like a wooden stick with some sort of cord and apparently can launch what he calls "arrows" at a cyclic rate of 2aps. These seem to be very effective anti personnel weapons. Thus far it is the one and only such weapon in Britannia. Suggestion: torture Eska until he divulges the construction blueprints for this curious invention. Recruit auxilia armed with this new weapon. Rule the world.
- Field tests show young enlisted legionaries to be pretty much useless whilst ones over 50 kick serious ass. Suggestion: raise the minimum recruitment age to 45. This will also solve the problem of pension as after 25 years none will be needed. The Imperium gains a better fighting force and sheds a lot of financial problems.
- Pilum javelins have been shown to look particularly awesome when travelling on a boat (I'm on a boat! I'm on a boat!) and thus the development program reached a successful conclusion. Now that we have this awesome prop all over the legions, Romans will look even better than before. However, this invention appears to be overly specialized. Holding it in your hand while on water may look great, but the effect may not justify the manufacture costs. Suggestion: make soldiers hold pila also when not on water. Thus the awesome effect can be displayed also on land to sow terror and confusion. Note to high command: some dissident elements have suggested taking pilum into battle and actually throwing it at the opponents, especially when sallying forth from a fort towards an edge of a forest holding unknown number of enemies. Those dissidents have been silenced. The awesomeness of pilum cannot be degraded by tossing it like a common javelin.
- Field tests have shown testudo to be eminently effective in delivering people where they want to get without any harm befalling them. Unfortunately whilst in testudo they appear to be unable to fight. Suggestion: adopt testudo as an officer limousine and stop using it as a combat formation.
- So I herd u liek Mithras!
- A new tribe has appeared in the north. Their young leader, one called Magua, keeps talking about some "Grey Hair" and "Le Long Carabine". As to the "Grey Hair" before he dies, Magua will apparently put his children under the knife, so the Grey Hair will know his seed is wiped out forever. Or something. Suggestion: foster and encourage this. The madness may spread to other Brit tribes.
- After various attempts of defending forts this strategy has been proved to be particularly effective: Remove all the lights from the walls and put them all inside. Thus the guards will see everything inside, but the land outside will to them be pitch black. This makes the legionaries stationed inside affraid of the outside and keeps them from going AWOL and whoring. When under threat of actuall attack mass all the soldiers in square formations in the very middle of the fort. Keep them away from the walls, they are useless there, and the walls themselves do not pose any impediment to British jump-pack warriors ("Death to the slaves of false Emperor!"). Deploy only the ranking officers on the walls as without soldiers around to foul their kung-fu they are awesome death-dealing machines. Make the soldiers watch how the officers kill everything. Thus the soldiers grow to be really afraid of their officers. This is as it should be. Suggestion: the wall parapets are mostly pointless as only 3-4 officers are needed to hold the fort. Instead of creating all-round parapets, just create a few fighting positions for the officers. Suggestion 2: enlist more officers. They kill people!

[Medicus matt]

Brilliant Piotr, absolutely brilliant.

[Vindex]

Were you VERY bored, Piotr?

May I ask you to do a similar critique of Centurion??

[Nurglitch]

Just a tad
Sorry, haven't seen Centurion. Is it worth it? How does it stack against The Eagle?

[The_Mariner]

Actually, I liked Centurion until the 'legion' with it's gung-ho legate was destroyed, moving without any scouts (but for that lady Pict-soon-to-turn-traitor-as-anybody-could-see-right-from-the-start) along a single road. By burning bushes no less! Come ON! Nah, for me it's still Gladiator with all it's historical quirks.

Not only did the Legion have no scouts (other than the Ninja Pict) they were acting like holiday tourists or Boy Scouts on a weekend outing, randomly setting up their tents among the trees. No Marching Camp? No "moat or stockade?" to quote Olivier as Crassus.

And speaking of Olivier ... I'll still take Spartacus, with all of its historical quirks. To my mind, no film has captured the might and the majesty of Roman Legions in the field quite like the final battle scene in Kubrick's film. Yes, that battle does finally devolve into standard Hollywood Ancient Battle Chaos, but the beginning, as the legions march onto the field, looks great. (And this scene done before the advent of CGI that allowed Lucas and Jackson to field armies with thousands of Clone Troopers or Orcs as the case may be.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgywD3XJaWU

:wink:

Narukami

spoiler alert


I too Love this scene, the eagle had some nice scenes again in the fort and at the wall and villa, but once over the wall why he was not killed out of hand is beyond me....

[Vindex]

Just a tad
Sorry, haven't seen Centurion. Is it worth it? How does it stack against The Eagle?

It's sort of better and sort of not. It is essentially a Roman chase movie but it has grown on me. Well, put it this way; having bought the dvd I have watched it more than once, which is more than I can say for The Eagle! :wink:

[Narukami]

I would choose Centurion over The Eagle, not for the former being markedly better than the latter, historically speaking, but mostly because the level of acting talent in Centurion is generally better than that on display in The Eagle.

Both films make plenty of historical errors (almost every film does) but I think The Eagle missed a real opportunity when they parted company with the book. Again, most films do, but in this case the film would, I think, have been much better had it stuck closer to the story as laid out in the book, dated though it may seem.

And may I say Piotr, your analysis of The Eagle is well done indeed.

The Eagle

http://www.ancient-warfare.com/cms/magaz...omans.html


Centurion

http://www.ancient-warfare.com/cms/magaz...omans.html

:wink:

Narukami

[Gaius Colletti]

I agree with Vindex, I did not much care for Centurion at first either, but it grew on me, and I have watched if a few times, and replayed the battle scene several times, and I feel irritatingly could have been filmed better... Why did every legionary abandon their shield after the fighting began?

[Nurglitch]

Can't do kung-fu with a shield, now can you?


OK, you guys talked me into it. Just bought it from Amazon, should be with me tomorrow.