Rat-tail pugios?

[Virilis]

Salvete!

Just noticed from another thread that the upper parts of the construction of the pugio handle were quite often solid iron! That was totally new to me, I had always thought that the upper layers of the pugio handle were always made of thin sheet iron. This leads to my question: how about the numerous pugio's found with rat tail tangs (Kunzig hoard etc.)? How was the handle constructed around these tangs? Is it possible that they had gladius-like grips? I remember seeing a photo of a gladius handle constructed around a pugio blade and some comments that they had wrongly mixed a pugio blade with a gladius grip remains. I am dazed and confused:wink: ...

[john roberts]

I'm told that the "soldier" discovered at Herculaneum was carrying a pugio that looked like a small gladius, though I don't know the details of its construction.

[Virilis]

Yes, I remember too. This leads to another question: what is the length where a short Mainz gladius turns into a pugio and vice versa!?

[Matthew Amt]

From what I've seen, the "solid iron" hilts are still 2 separate plates, and they really aren't very wide or thick. Presumably they'd be applied just like the sheet iron ones, riveted to the tang with organic layers between.

Data on the rat-tail tanged hilts seems a little fuzzier, but I'll bet Crispus will fill us in! Probably most looked just like the other type, though I've heard suggestions that they may have been all organic, without metal plates on top. Possibly even held on by friction, which is why we find bare blades. Not sure! I'm not sure the sword-style hilts were common. Don't know!

Crispus, help!

Matthew

[PhilusEstilius]

The very famous Velsen Dagger that I have made so many times has a thin type of tang, but no metal plates were found with it so can it be as Matt says total organic.
In fact I think there is a complete handle for a pugio in the BM that is made from Ivory.

[Celer]

Salve

There is an ivory/bone hilt-plate in the Museum of London. It is hollowed out at the back for a tang. Crispus and I had a chat about it a few days ago and we thought that it either had another organic back-plate, or it might have been a filler between two metal hilt-plates.

Vale

Celer.

[Virilis]

Thanks guys, this is very interesting. Does anyone have perhaps pics of the specimens presented above?

[munazio planco]

avete

this discussion is very very interesting.I don't hundestand for example because only a few of reenactors like use organic handle for pugio.The pugio of the herculaneum soldier was exactly like a small gladius handle in ivory,in some relief we can see the same kind of hanlde and more inportant is that for example in the Vindonissa museum is full of pugio blades whit tang and not whit the traditional form of the handle for the metal parts.

I looked in a book the photo of the ivory handle of pugio that is in british museum and this is really strange repert because is similar in the apparence to a traditional pugio handle in metal but look like if could have in inside the tang!

Please...if some of you live in London could go for do some photo of this important repert?

[john roberts]

And I would like to see a picture of that Herculaneum pugio. In fact, we need an illustrated discussion of the "unconventional" pugios, rat-tail tang pugios and organic-hilt pugios. For years, reenactors have used the metallic-hilt pugios exclusively, when this may have been just one of several designs used.

[pmel018]

give me some more information and I can go into the BM for you
Phil

[john roberts]

And does anyone know if there was a scabbard on the Herculaneum soldier's dagger? I'd like to know if it looked like a conventional pugio's, a gladius's, or something else entirely.

[Crispvs]

'Rat tail' tangs (more correctly known as 'Rod tangs' or 'Type II' tangs), tend to be later than 'Frame' or 'Type I' tangs, although they probably existed side by side for some time. By the middle of the first century AD the rod tang appears to have been most common. A number of surviving rod tangs show evidence of having been peened over the top of the handle.

There are three possible ways in which the handles could have been constructed, namely by:
(a) sandwiching the tang between the two inner (organic) plates, with the grip plates (of either type) being attached in one of the normal ways;
(b) replacing the two inner plates with a single thicker plate with a hole running through it to accommodate the rod tang, and attaching the grip plate (of either type) in one of the normal ways; and
© replacing the inner plate and one of the grip plates with a single organic 'monolithic' handle, with a single grip plate attached to the outer face.

The first two options are both speculative but one or both must have been used. The fact that so many pugios with rod tangs have been found without their handles has led many to speculate that the sandwiching method may have been common. Although many examples may have lost their handles after deposition, some certainly lost their handles whilst still in use, as shown by an example from Vindonissa whose handle has been replaced with a gladius grip and an example from London whose handle has been replaced with a turned wooden handle.

A pugio with a rod tang which must have used one of these two methods survived from Usk and is presently in the Roman Army Museum in Caerleon. It has solid iron grip plates with the front grip plate decorated with silver inlay, but the inner plates/organic layer has disappeared (the whole handle is greatly distorted by rust but X-rays have revealed the details).

The third option survives in two examples, one complete example from Heddernheim and the other presently in the Museum of London (not the British Museum, although the Hod Hill pugios are in the British Museum and are worth seeing), which is missing its guard. Both are made of ivory (that is, the Heddernheim example is and I am led to believe that the one in the Museum of London is too) and both take the form of a somewhat enlarged handle with a longitudinal hole running through it to accommodate a rod tang. Each has one side (presumably the side which would lie against the soldier's body) which is convex and approximates the normal outward shape of a grip plate. The other side of each is recessed to allow a grip plate of normal size to be inserted. Both feature two roughly parallel holes through the pommel expansion, presumably to fix the grip plate in place.


Brian, I am not sure why you think that the Velsen dagger had a rod tang. Only the very bottom of the tang survives and it is impossible to determine from that alone what type of tang originally existed. The rest of the tang, along with any grip plate which may have been present have been destroyed by the same corrosive substance which damaged the front plate of the sheath. However, the surviving bone/antler top plate features three decorative silver rivets and there is no hole for the end of a rod tang to emerge, making it likely that the Velsen dagger originally had a frame type tang, possibly of the subtype which extended only a little way beyond the central expansion.

Regarding the Herculaneum soldier's dagger, from what photos I have seen of it, it does not resemble a normal pugio and looks instead like a cut-down Mainz type sword, which is what it may in fact have been. Certainly it seems to have a Mainz type handle, and it could be that a broken Mainz type gladius found new life as a dagger owned by the Herculaneum soldier.

Mention was also made of grip plates. These came in two forms, namely solid iron and thin iron sheet embossed to the same profile as solid plates. All solid grip plates I am aware of are of iron and typically have a slightly curving side profile, becoming quite thin at both the guard and the top of the pommel expansion. Typically the front grip plate is decorated with inlay. The thin embossed type of grip plate was attached over inner plates made to the same profile as the outer shape of a grip plate. On some examples, the front and back grip plates were made in a single piece which passes over the top of the pommel expansion such as the example from Titelberg and one from Colchester which is currently languishing in a store room somewhere beneath the British Museum. Like the solid type of grip plate, the front grip plates of the thin embossed type were often inlaid.

I hope this answers some of the questions so far raised.


Crispvs

[munazio planco]

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avete


this is the design from one book of this ivory handle that is in the BM(on book is write like that)

look the strange sistem of assemble..

Phil you should look for this repert...thank you

Crispvs you have some photo interesting?

[Crispvs]

That's definitely the grip in the Museum of London. It looks to me as though the caption for the picture also mentions the Mueum of London. The third century dagger and sheath from Coptal Court shown on the same page is also in that museum.

I do have a photo of the grip but it is just a poor quality one taken on my mobile phone. The drawing in the book is much better. Obmann lists it along with the Heddernheim one but whilst he illustrates the Heddernheim grip he does not illustrate the London one. He confirms that the London grip is made of ivory.

In the picture you can see how it is recessed on one side to accept (presumably) a normal sized solid iron grip plate, whilst at the same time being pierced by a hole to accept a rod tang.


Crispvs