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Salvete
I am interested in examineting these two parameters of roman helmets
(republican, early and late empire)
- weight
AND
- thickness
I am searching "here and there" ... and finding NOTHING 
Maybe some of You can help me a bit ?
There are so many people related with roman museums or museum's projects.
Maybe you can find such information in museum's records ?
ANY SINGLE data will be helpfull.
Thank you in advance
Cacaivs
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Ave!
I'm sure there have been discussions of this before, but the problem is that data such as that is apparently regarded as secret by museums, etc. But a few tidbits have leaked out, such as the pieces in the Axel Guttmann collection. As I recall, many helmets ran between 2 and 3 pounds, much lighter than most reproductions. Sure, you can attribute some of that to loss from corrosion or generations of cleaning, but some examples have very fine details which are still sharp (decorations or simply tool marks). Since reproductions made from sheet metal of 18 gauge or c. 1 mm end up weighing 4 to 5 pounds, it seems to me that the *average* thickness of original helmets must be under 1 mm.
Hopefully the museum secret police won't make me disappear... I've actually seen slightly more published data on Bronze Age armor! But it gets weirder, there, since practically every piece is blithely dismissed as "ceremonial" or "parade armor", either because it's too thick and heavy to wear, or because it's too thin and flimsy to be useful. Mind you, sometimes these judgements are about the same piece!
Still waiting for that "Information Age"...
Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
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This might be ok with some bronze items but not iron. The problem with this kind of analysis is that the current thickness of many iron artefacts have little in common with their thickness when they were in use. Even if a medieval item comes down to us in good condition then it is a result of centuries of polishing. If not then significant amounts of oxidation was removed during its restoration. Add to that the fact that as iron oxidises it can almost double its original volume and the conclusion is that any such study is largely meaningless. The only items worth studying are those that are both in decent condition and have been confirmed not to have been "restored". Even the number of medieval items that meet these conditions is small. For example, many of the Mantova suits of plate were painted early on to prevent deterioration and today some of that paint is still intact so we can be farirly confident that their condition is good enough for study. Any items with their tin coating still largely intact would be another good contender.
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But is there any reason to suspect that an iron helmet would be significantly heavier than a comparable copper alloy one? Things like copper alloy edgings and peened rivets should give us a good idea of the original thickness of the iron at those points. Granted, we're getting into some really fine measurements! The difference between 0.8 mm and 1 mm could easily be a pound or more (when discussing a whole helmet, that is!).
Need more data! Of course, that's what the original post was about...
Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
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Apparently, if i have to believe the Archaeologists, the Romans would have been Jealous of our re-enactment Armour, which is substantally better than the muck they wore...
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For combat helmets Junkelmann's publication of the helmets from the Guttmann collection gives details on thickness and weight. Ranges are as follows:
Montefortino early versions are thick and heavy (e.g. AG 425 2-3mm, 2204g), later versions appear to be thinner and lighter (AG266 1-1.5, 680g). Most helmets are around 1kg +/- 20%. A single early Coolus (AG 538) is 0.7-1.6 and 864g.
Weisenau helmets are in a range of 0.8-1.5mm and weigh around 1kg +/- 20% (e.g. AG 503: 1-1.3, 1kg, AG502 0.8-1.2, 1225), although weight is not really conclusive as most helmets are heavily restored.
The famous mouse helmet is 1-1.5mm and weighs 1730g.
Finally, a single bronze Niederbieber helmet (incomplete) is 0.8-1mm and 576g.
Most other publications state thickness only in general terms ("ca. 1mm" or "less than 1mm"). Weight is hardly ever mentioned but, again, is mostly not conclusive anyway.
Regards,
Jens Horstkotte
Munich, Germany
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Quote:Montefortino early versions are thick and heavy (e.g. AG 425 2-3mm, 2204g), later versions appear to be thinner and lighter (AG266 1-1.5, 680g).
I've heard that before about early Montefortinos, but 2.2 kg is still less than 5 pounds, which is what my 1 mm-thick Imperial-Gallic H weighs! And it doesn't seem that heavy to me (well, at least in the morning...). Even accounting for metal ground or sanded off in the finishing process on my helmet, I just don't see how any helmet could be 2-3mm overall and weigh that little. It HAS to be thinner somewhere!
Quote:Most other publications state thickness only in general terms ("ca. 1mm" or "less than 1mm"). Weight is hardly ever mentioned but, again, is mostly not conclusive anyway.
Agreed! "1mm" seems to be a catch-all expression meaning something between paper and a plank... Thanks for quoting those numbers, by the way! Exactly the stuff I was thinking of.
Valete,
Matthew
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Agree with Matt. It is impossible to have an average 2mm thick (human-size) Montefortino that only weighs 2.2kg. 3kg of plate or even more would be needed.
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If you take a look into the RAT helmet database, you will find that there are quite a few instances of weights being recorded there. In entering the data, I've generally tried to add it as a separate item in the 'notes' section. As someone noted above, it often seems to be the case that private collectors are willing to provide this information but museums don't seem to care.
Thickness is another problem. Not only are there issues to do with corrosion products over 2,000 years but it is also extremely difficult to determine what the thickness is because of the shape of the helmet itself. You can get at the rim region but deeper inside is almost impossible without a special instrument of the calliper type. I've had a few goes at this myself and believe me, it ain't easy!
Mike Thomas (Caratacus)
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Another reason for the 'hazy' thicknesses given, e.g. "0.8-1.5 mm" and an explanation for the apparent anomalies between weight and thickness is that these helmets were seldom, if ever, of uniform thickness and, like earlier Greek helmets and modern tank armour, were thicker at vulnerable points and thinner at less vulnerable points.....
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Just to add to this, it's possible to have a helmet of those weights while having the thicknesses lsited. This reproduction helemt is listed as 2 pounds 3 ounces, which is fairly light http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?...dau+Helmet
The same site also has 16 gauge helmets well within the historical weights given above.
Also keep in mind, if you are buying sheet steel in the US, 18 gauge is 1.2mm, not 1 mm.
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Quote:Just to add to this, it's possible to have a helmet of those weights while having the thicknesses lsited. This reproduction helemt is listed as 2 pounds 3 ounces, which is fairly light http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?...dau+Helmet
The same site also has 16 gauge helmets well within the historical weights given above.
Also keep in mind, if you are buying sheet steel in the US, 18 gauge is 1.2mm, not 1 mm.
Well, the helmet you list there is a cheap helmet from India. I wouldn't compare that one with anything real.
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