Fabric Questions...

[Quintus Claudius Scaevola]

Salve,

I had some fabric questions concerning a few projects I'm intending on:

1) The last time I made a wool tunic and paneula, this is the site I went through, which I found off the Legion XX site - http://www.periodfabric.com/Wools.htm
While the Red WRM-204 worked out great for my tunic, the brown WGH-402 didn't work out well at all. Simply put, it was just too thin for anything but a light dust-cloak (I still made it anyway - I'll have to put up the pictures sometime...) Also, after a little more research, I discovered that the brown colour really isn't as correct as I'd like it to be for a Britain-based legionaire. Does anyone know of a better site in the U.S. that has...what I can only describe as "Cloak Weight" wool in an appropriate colour? I'd like to make another one, but I'd rather not have another failure.

2) On the subject of linen, I want to make a red summer tunic but have no idea what I need to look for in linen, other than making sure the bolt says '100% Linen' Rather than have to go through the onerous process of searching through various fabric sites, is there one that everyone goes to that would have what I need in stock? Is the stuff at my local Jo-Ann's fabrics good enough? Would this be the same quality that I would use to make a subarmalis such as the one on this site? http://www.paddedarmour.com/

3) Concerning the focale, I'm wanting to make one, but I noticed that there's some disagreement as to what the original shape is - Thoughts? Should I just get an extra yard of linen from project #2 and hand-stitch it? Should the colour match whichever tunic I'm making? While Legion XX says it isn't supposed to be pinned, I've noticed that almost every close-up I see in Brassey's 'Roman Army: Wars of the Empire' does show it as being pinned. Which is correct?

4) I know there's not much to go on judging from the traffic I've seen on the subject in the forums, but I'm dying to make a (pair?) of subligaculum. Has anyone actually made any? I know it seems like it would be ridiculously simple to make, but I don't even know what material I should make it out of - is natural-coloured, tunic-weight linnen good enough?

5) Where do I post pictures of completed projects? I've got a pair of calligae that I don't think turned out too badly for a first attempt.

Many thanks, and best regards!

-Quintus Claudius Britanicus,
Legionaire, LEGIIAVG

[Matthew Amt]

While the Red WRM-204 worked out great for my tunic, the brown WGH-402 didn't work out well at all. Simply put, it was just too thin for anything but a light dust-cloak (I still made it anyway - I'll have to put up the pictures sometime...) Also, after a little more research, I discovered that the brown colour really isn't as correct as I'd like it to be for a Britain-based legionaire. Does anyone know of a better site in the U.S. that has...what I can only describe as "Cloak Weight" wool in an appropriate colour? I'd like to make another one, but I'd rather not have another failure.

Ave and Welcome! Last I heard, a variety of colors was used for cloaks, so I'm curious to find out where you heard that a particular color was not right for Britain? I've made cloaks out of coat-weight and blanket-weight wools, pretty much whatever I come across. You don't want it TOO bulky!

2) On the subject of linen, I want to make a red summer tunic but have no idea what I need to look for in linen, other than making sure the bolt says '100% Linen' Rather than have to go through the onerous process of searching through various fabric sites, is there one that everyone goes to that would have what I need in stock? Is the stuff at my local Jo-Ann's fabrics good enough? Would this be the same quality that I would use to make a subarmalis such as the one on this site? http://www.paddedarmour.com/

I suspect that most any linen you find is suitable, as long as it's 100 percent flax. However, I don't think I've ever seen a good madder red linen! (The wool you got is not a madder shade, so it's probably too "expensive" a red for most troops. Sorry!) There are certainly different weights of linen, but that's kind of up to you. And there certainly isn't any one particular source that most folks use! Fabric hunting is usually a hunt...

3) Concerning the focale, I'm wanting to make one, but I noticed that there's some disagreement as to what the original shape is - Thoughts? Should I just get an extra yard of linen from project #2 and hand-stitch it? Should the colour match whichever tunic I'm making? While Legion XX says it isn't supposed to be pinned, I've noticed that almost every close-up I see in Brassey's 'Roman Army: Wars of the Empire' does show it as being pinned. Which is correct?

Details about the focale are vague. We can't prove the shape or the color, or even the material, so do it however it works for you. BUT if you can find ANY Roman illustration of a focale secured by a pin or brooch, do let me know and I'll be happy to change the Legio XX site to reflect that! In the meantime, I claim victory on that point. No evidence for pinning the focale.

4) I know there's not much to go on judging from the traffic I've seen on the subject in the forums, but I'm dying to make a (pair?) of subligaculum. Has anyone actually made any? I know it seems like it would be ridiculously simple to make, but I don't even know what material I should make it out of - is natural-coloured, tunic-weight linnen good enough?

Sure, that'll work. Again, construction details are unknown, but a number of folks have made them.

5) Where do I post pictures of completed projects? I've got a pair of calligae that I don't think turned out too badly for a first attempt.

Just start a thread in the Reconstruction section, I'd say. One for each project, if you like, or one for all of them. (Separate is probably better.)

Good luck!

Matthew

[Quintus Claudius Scaevola]

Details about the focale are vague. We can't prove the shape or the color, or even the material, so do it however it works for you. BUT if you can find ANY Roman illustration of a focale secured by a pin or brooch, do let me know and I'll be happy to change the Legio XX site to reflect that! In the meantime, I claim victory on that point. No evidence for pinning the focale.

Illustrations, yes. Historical research, no. The pictures I saw this from is in the book "Roman Army: Wars of the Empire" (The Brassey's History of Uniforms series) by Graham Sumner. Specifically, the re-enactor photos on pages 19, 27, Centurion on page 31, Imaginifer on page 39, 'Gladius-draw' photo page 47, fastener photo page 51, 62, 66, 67, possibly 70 (It's hard to spot...), 86, 99, and 139. Most of those photos I'm thinking are the Ermine Street Guard, and I'd hate to think that many professionals would be wrong. :-P Also, the book mentioned the possibility that a good deal of the carvings of Romans had their hamata painted on afterwards for finer detail (See page 51, second paragraph); It seems entirely plausible that a carving (Such as on page 113, lower right picture) would also have a focale painted on, rather than someone trying to carve it in.

I will be the first to concede that point is my own personal speculation, however; Knotting the focale is perfectly acceptable to me, too. :-)

Concerning the paenula colour, I'm afraid it's one-part "But they're wearing madder-RED cloaks in the movies and television!" and one-part reading too quickly on the Legion XX site: "There were two types of cloak in use, the sagum and the paenula. Both seem to have been some shade of brown or YELLOWISH-BROWN in color; apparently a particular type of wool was preferred..." I see that the person in the photo is wearing a shade slightly lighter than mine, but still brown.

GUH! I guess I'll have to hit up the suppliers and Jo-Ann's then, and see what sort of linen I can find. You say there are multiple weights, but is there an 'average' weight that works well for tunics? Just as well, the red wool seems to be sold-out on Hamilton Dry Goods - Looks like I'll need to find another site that has the 'madder red' that I need...I'll post the pics when I get some more time (18 credits this term is becoming a royal pain!), but thanks again for the assistance.

-Quintus Claudius Britanicus,
Legionnaire, LEGIIAVG

[M. Demetrius]

Have you tried B. Black and Sons in California? Also, Harbor Freight has both grey and red blankets that make into decent paenulae, though neither of them are 100% wool.

[Matthew Amt]

Illustrations, yes. Historical research, no. The pictures I saw this from is in the book "Roman Army: Wars of the Empire" (The Brassey's History of Uniforms series) by Graham Sumner. Specifically, the re-enactor photos on pages 19, 27, Centurion on page 31, Imaginifer on page 39, 'Gladius-draw' photo page 47, fastener photo page 51, 62, 66, 67, possibly 70 (It's hard to spot...), 86, 99, and 139. Most of those photos I'm thinking are the Ermine Street Guard, and I'd hate to think that many professionals would be wrong.

Since those are all photos of reenactors, they do not count as historical evidence. Technically, most of them are not professional historians (well, they may indeed get paid for some performances, as I do myself, but they are not necessarily trained and accredited historians!), but even if they were, you'd be horrified to know how often and how badly such people can be wrong! Reenactors are extremely susceptible to "parrot syndrome", as I call it, copying baseless theories or downright errors repeatedly as accepted fact.

Also, the book mentioned the possibility that a good deal of the carvings of Romans had their hamata painted on afterwards for finer detail (See page 51, second paragraph); It seems entirely plausible that a carving (Such as on page 113, lower right picture) would also have a focale painted on, rather than someone trying to carve it in.

Correct, that is more baseless speculation. Well, I should say that we know some details were painted in, but we also see that in some cases there are details as small as brooches carefully carved in. If the detail was or may have been painted in, but is no longer visible, we can't use it as evidence, eh?

Concerning the paenula colour, I'm afraid it's one-part "But they're wearing madder-RED cloaks in the movies and television!"...

You probably already know the rule of thumb that EVERYthing in the movies is wrong! Plus, the red you are seeing is not madder red, which is more of an orangey tomato-red.

...and one-part reading too quickly on the Legion XX site: "There were two types of cloak in use, the sagum and the paenula. Both seem to have been some shade of brown or YELLOWISH-BROWN in color; apparently a particular type of wool was preferred..." I see that the person in the photo is wearing a shade slightly lighter than mine, but still brown.

I should update that page! It's not wrong, just not the whole story. Best thing is to get Graham Sumner's most recent book, "Roman Military Dress". From the evidence he has collected, yellow-brown is a typical color, but not the only one available.

GUH! I guess I'll have to hit up the suppliers and Jo-Ann's then, and see what sort of linen I can find. You say there are multiple weights, but is there an 'average' weight that works well for tunics?

Nah, not really. If you plan to wear it alone, not just under a wool tunic, just make sure it isn't too see-through! Less of a problem with red, but like I say, you won't find madder-red linen anywhere. (But if you do, let us all know, please!!) Heavier linen will be more durable, generally. And even if it seems kind of stiff at first, a good thrashing in the washer and dryer before you make the tunic will soften it up nicely.

Vale,

Matthew

PS: Your green italic print is a little hard to read with my aging eyes! Any chance you can change to regular straight black? Tanx!

[Quintus Claudius Scaevola]

You probably already know the rule of thumb that EVERYthing in the movies is wrong! Plus, the red you are seeing is not madder red, which is more of an orangey tomato-red.

I was wondering about what that shade specifically was...especially when it comes to the above-mentioned B. Black and Sons - Looks like a good place for wool, but it comes back to the lack of knowledge about wool: Gabardine? Suiting? Flannel or coating? Melton? Melton alone has two shades of red. What type/colour (Tunic colour debate aside) is appropriate enough? I was thinking it was supposed to be darker - More like a brick red.

Less of a problem with red, but like I say, you won't find madder-red linen anywhere. (But if you do, let us all know, please!!) Heavier linen will be more durable, generally. And even if it seems kind of stiff at first, a good thrashing in the washer and dryer before you make the tunic will soften it up nicely.

Will do. I actually just picked up a couple of yards of white linen today, so I'll see what can be done with that. Alas, Jo-Ann's does not have linen thread (Well, mine doesn't anyhow...) I guess poly/cotton will have to do.

Your green italic print is a little hard to read with my aging eyes! Any chance you can change to regular straight black? Tanx!

Not a problem. I use that font on other forums and wasn't thinking about it. Consider it fixed.

-Quintus Claudius Britanicus,
Legionnaire, LEGIIAVG

[Athena Areias]

Check out wmboothdraper.com. I get my linen hand-sewing thread from there. They carry several weights and tell you what it is used for. You can also mine the site for fabric info. They carry lots, but are expensive (and authentic).

[Matthew Amt]

Good illustration of madder red here:

http://www.lawrensnest.com/tunics.html

Also the "Red Brick Melton" here at MJ Cahn:

http://www.wovenfabrics.com/MJCahnWoolMeltonFabrics.htm

I don't tend to use the term "brick red" because it can mean anything from pink to burgundy! I've even seen a bluish-brown color referred to as "brick red"...

As for wool types, I know flannel is safe, and probably suiting as well. Not crepe or jersey. Melton should be fine. I think. Maybe gabardine, too? When I buy stuff in the store, I don't worry about anything except the content and "OOoo, this looks good!", so I rarely notice what it's called!

Matthew

[Cheyenne]

The 'brick red' Melton colour on the site you have posted to is actually closer to the reds that may have been used for the average legionary tunic than the very bright scarlet colours.

I have commision dyed a number of pieces of melton (both light and heavyweight) for tunics/cloaks etc and the brick (or ochre true) colours are more well known from madder that is grown in temperate climates with well draining soils.

The thing about Madder is that it is highly inconsistent when cloth/yarn is dyed with it. The only way of actually getting the real crimson colours when using madder root is by adding cream of tartar at the end of the simmering process. We have no idea if tartar was used by Roman dyers - therefore we can only assume that the madder used so extensively (see JP Wild on the vindolanda textiles for example) on fragments of cloth (especially in Britain) was of more the brick to salmon red colours. I for one would like to see far more variation in living historians 'everyday' tunics - such as brick reds, through to almost pinky/puce colours. Madder as a plant is very sensitive to specific environmental conditions when it is grown, and such conditions contribute greatly to the finished colour of the cloth.

Also, if you feel brave enough to have a go at dyeing your own pieces of fabric, then make sure you use enough dyestuff for the weight - heavier fabric means more root to extract the colour beforehand.

I finished some dyeing with madder this weekend and it can out bright burnt orange.

To get a nice ochre/gold/mustard - I recommend using ochre strained through muslin then an overdye of dyers weld - a relatively easy plant to use. It can be purchased ready dried.

[attachment=126]IMGP1697.JPG[/attachment]

This picture shows just how vibrant natural dyes can be, this is ochre with weld.

The weave of the material is also important on saturation and take up of colour. If you are trying to dye yourself and using a very closely woven worsted, then the colour won't take as well as something such as the weave in the picture, which was woven reconstructed based on one of the Vindolanda fragments

[Magnus]

Please don't bother making the subligaculum. There is a guy in my unit that has some, and every time we are at an event, his hairy nether region always flops out. I laugh and cry at the same time. (I also make the face pictured in my Avatar, except with tears on my cheeks). So if you like the people you are doing events with...please spare them the horror lol.

Don't worry too much about the Focale, it was just a scarf that went around your neck...rectangular or triangular, both will get the job done. Oh yeah, and don't pin it...that pin will also pin your chest or neck...especially when wearing armour.

I also wouldn't worry too much about your cloak colour, and the weight of it. As Matt said, you don't want it too bulky. If warmth is an issue at night at an event, just bring lots of blankets, or a good sleeping bag and air mattress you can hide in the morning under your cloak.

[Graham Sumner]

Best thing is to get Graham Sumner's most recent book, "Roman Military Dress". From the evidence he has collected, yellow-brown is a typical color, but not the only one available.


Thanks for the mention Matthew!

This picture shows just how vibrant natural dyes can be, this is ochre with weld.

Is that my new cloak Claire? :wink:

[Cheyenne]

If you are ok with the colour that dark Graham, then yes it will be, that was just the test on a scarf I made from the offcuts.. I enjoyed using those two pigments as overdyes

I was thinking it needs to be more muted, but based on your love of vibrant colour, then I'll carry on with your huge cloak.

The loomstate material is really lovely and soft when it has been washed - it is 100% lambswool from Swaledale sheep I think (thats what the weaver said)

[Marcus Velius Avitus]

I suppose the other factor to consider is the fact that natural dyes and mordents aren't as color-fast as modern syntheic dyes. They fade extremely quickly. A red fabric will turn pink to orange very quickly after being exposed to rain, sunlight and the rigors of Roman launderng and labor. Just sayin...:wink:

[Matthew Amt]

Not necessarily. Historical colors could be reasonably durable if they were done properly, and ancient dyers certainly knew all the tricks of the time. For instance, a decent madder red tunic isn't going to fade to yellow in a few months. And since we know that soldiers were going through several tunics a year, it would probably go for padding, socks, or rags before the color was completely shot. Certainly there were some colors that were known to be "fugitive", but it's not likely that those were real popular with soldiers anyway.

Matthew

[Marcus Velius Avitus]

Indeed - thats true. We know they went through multiple tunics a year, then they probably got new ones before the old ones were that faded or got worn out anyway. Good point.