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Musculata Images
I think the link that Alexander has shown of pteruges the evidence picture 7 indicates that these ones are made of leather.
Brian Stobbs
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Quote:You'll find innumerable examples of the same and even better quality in the Hellenistic artistic production, you need only to observe carefully the details and maybe also reading something about the 'Naturalism' in the Greek-Roman Artistic production of the Classical Age, it's easy and also interesting. :wink:
And complete rubbish. It is impossible to tell whether something in a sculpture is made of leather or textile unless the artist has bothered to include the cross hatching of the weave in the texture. Leather can fold and move and drape just like cloth. It all depends on the type of weave in the cloth and the thickness of the leather.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Frieze from Aquileia, Italy


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Massimiliano Fedel
Classical Archaeology, Roman military Archaeology, Roman provincial Archaeology, Archaeology of Aquileia
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Quote:
Diocle post=350998 Wrote:You'll find innumerable examples of the same and even better quality in the Hellenistic artistic production, you need only to observe carefully the details and maybe also reading something about the 'Naturalism' in the Greek-Roman Artistic production of the Classical Age, it's easy and also interesting. :wink:
And complete rubbish. It is impossible to tell whether something in a sculpture is made of leather or textile unless the artist has bothered to include the cross hatching of the weave in the texture. Leather can fold and move and drape just like cloth. It all depends on the type of weave in the cloth and the thickness of the leather.

No, this is not true, if you look carefully at the dresses of Venus you'll see that they are clothes, probably form the shape of the folds on the fabric, it's linen or a light fabric, instead if you look, (trying to be patient) at the folds of the Leather subarmalis of Mars you'll see another shape, there, the folds are almost absent or rather rounded ... it's not a textile fabric it's something less ... creased.

Look at the wonderful sculptures from the Parthenon in London, you can clearly understand the quality of the fabric represented ... these details are absolutely readable, because the Hellenism had, as main objective and artistic language, what was called 'Naturalism', that is, they thought that the imitation of the nature, the 'Mimesis', should be considered the highest form of artistic expression.

So now, look at the details of the sculpture we are discussing:

Firstly the textile fabric of the cloth of Venus, do you see how the folds are tight and dense? Probably it's a light fabric, maybe linen?

[Image: venus-1.jpg~original]

Then look at her mantle, do you see how the folds are deeper and more plastic? Probably the fabric is made of heavier textile material ... cotton? wool?

[Image: venus-2.jpg~original]

Now finally look at what looks like the leather subarmalis of Mars (at least in my opinion), do you see how quickly the folds die? do you see how thicker and less crushed on each other they are? It is as if the material opposes a resistance to bending. It's clearly different from the clothes of Venus, here the material looks stronger and thicker ....

[Image: mars.jpg~original]
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I think you captured that one nicely Diocle, well done.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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Have to agree with diocle on this one.
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I said "Leather can fold and move and drape just like cloth. It all depends on the type of weave in the cloth and the thickness of the leather."

That particular example is apparently depicting a very thin, light cloth. What has that to do with armour or arming garments? The type of cloth required for those items is a lot more substantial and is indistinguishable from light leather in the way it moves, drapes, and folds.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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We're discussing a Subarmalis, not a musculata.
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Quote:We're discussing a Subarmalis, not a musculata.

A subarmalis IS an arming garment. They use heavier textiles than the flimsy dress above and the material is functionally indistinguishable from light leather.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Just a thought to add, my subarmalis is made to fit very close to my body, as the muscle cuirass is designed to also fit closely. So generally, you wont see the material fold on my subarmalis unless it's off of me or worn very loosley... which it never is. You don't want a subarmalis that has a lot of loose fabric when you are going to be wearing close fitting armor as it is extremely uncomfortable.

Also I'm having a hard time understanding why leather would be more acceptable in colder climates. Why wouldn't you just use a quilted subarmalis with extra layers or filling to add insulation. Leather isn't warm generally, and it retains heat no better that quilted fabric.
M.VAL.BRUTUS
Brandon Barnes
Legio VI Vicrix
www.legionsix.org
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Quote:I said "Leather can fold and move and drape just like cloth. It all depends on the type of weave in the cloth and the thickness of the leather."

That particular example is apparently depicting a very thin, light cloth. What has that to do with armour or arming garments? The type of cloth required for those items is a lot more substantial and is indistinguishable from light leather in the way it moves, drapes, and folds.

I think you clearly can see it's made of a different material than a textile thin dress, and that probably it is made of leather, there weren't many more materials creating the effect of leather when folded .. .

This was the point about the pic and this point is now clear I suppose: The subarmalis is made of leather, at least if our eyes are still working well, the heavy textile is perfectly represented by the cloak of Venus and it's clearly sculpted in a different way than the Mars' subarmalis, on the other hand, the effect of a thin tissue is clearly shown on the cloth directly enveloping the soft skin of the Goddess, so, at this point, it's not easy thinking to something else than leather.

I think that, worn under a bronze muscled cuirass, a thin leather subarmalis may work pretty well ....
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Thin leather subarmalis are what most reenactors use. Not designed to protect against blunt force, but something moreso designed to protect against chafing and the armor tearing up one's Tunic.
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