Leather Armour?

[Ghostmojo]

I have come across a few references to muscled (and non-muscled) leather armour here and there, and recently flicking through Duncan Head's book Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars 359BC to 146BC, there are few illustrations within which also indicate this kind of protection.

I was wondering what the general views about this were. Did leather cuirasses/thoraxes start to become more common? Were they muscled/shaped or just more simple forms? Were they coloured in any particular way? I am referring to what is often termed a Spolades rather than a spolas or linothorax type construct. I'm interested in the type of armour that seems to mirror the bronze or iron muscled cuirass, but is instead moulded in leather. It would seem like a cheaper alternative and perhaps was mainly adopted by officers?

I readily admit to not having detailed in-depth knowledge about the extent of this kind of gear, who used it, when it first appeared, to what extent it spread etc.; which is why I am asking this question. Is it correct to say it seems to have been well-established in Roman times, and if so, how much in the Greek/Hellenistic period I wonder?

[Dan Howard]

Yes it is highly likely that the Greeks made use of leather both as scale armour and in the tube-and-yoke typology.

It is highly unlikely that the "muscled" typology was made from any material other than metal regardless of whether it is Greek or Roman.

Leather armour is definitely not well established in Roman times, though it seems to have been used on occasion.

All of this has been discussed many times before. Use the search function.

[Ghostmojo]

... All of this has been discussed many times before. Use the search function.

Thanks for the reply Dan. I did search around a bit before posting this, but didn't find anything that was close to what I was after. If you could redirect me I'd be grateful...

In the meantime what does anybody make of these:

http://www.hanzoswords.com/Leather-Cuirass-_p_1141.html

http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/armour/...lcuir.html

http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/bodyarmour.htm

Is it just a mix of the real and the fanciful?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I am referring to what is often termed a Spolades rather than a spolas or linothorax type construct.

"Spolades" is simply the plural of a "spolas", no other type of armour.

I believe there was a lengthy thread named "linothorax,leather or linen" or something like that in the Greek section.

[Ghostmojo]

I have read many of the threads about this, including your own leather linothorax post which was great, and all fourteen pages of this:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/index.p...966764e03a

I also note a similar discussion is taking place over in the Roman arena:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/index.p...966764e03a

[Ghostmojo]

On a similar related theme I couldn't help but remember these guys and their gear:



All taken from: K.M.T. Chrimes Ancient Sparta (Manchester University Press)

[Dithrambus]

That is a fascinating image, are the Spartans in the image on the left or right? Hoplites on both sides appear to have long hair, the hoplite on the right is wearing thigh guards and carries a Boiotian shield, so I assume the Spartans are on the left (or on the right, fighting alongside Boiotian allies?). I also see what appears to be a chin strap? on the helmet at the upper right.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Very interesting post,thanks for posting this!Never heard the connection between the skiritai and the animal skins. There are hoplites in archaic spartan pottery wearing leopard skins. But there are also in Attik pottery.
Khaire
Giannis

[Matthew Amt]

There does not seem to be any indication that these animal skins took the FORM of the cuirass, only that they were worn INSTEAD of a cuirass.

Currently, most of us believe the Archaic and Classical "tube and yoke" cuirass was the leather spolas. The same shape was certainly continued in the Hellenistic era and later in a number of materials, including mail and scales, and presumably quilted linen. But even the use of word "linothorax" is now questioned!

There is currently no good evidence that the muscled cuirass was constructed from leather. And if that were cheaper, why would it be worn by officers, who generally went to some lengths to get *more expensive* armor?

The Lloydian Hoplite page is now outdated, being written way back when most of us believed in the glued linen cuirass due to the evidence readily available at the time. We now have much better evidence than he presents, right here on RAT.

NEVER use a website selling "reproduction" armor as even a suggestion that something might have possibly existed in ancient times! Some of it might be quite accurate, but much of it is simply fantasy.

Vale,

Matthew

[Ghostmojo]

In response to Matthew in particular; yes, I recognise those web links contain some spurious images (as I noted) but there are also some interesting pieces there; and no, I wasn't suggesting the animal skins the Skiritai might have worn were a spolas or indeed any other kind of thorax - but were worn instead of the latter, as seemed to be their want/right.

To Giannis, this skin looks also to be a leopard skin (you can see the animal's head).

To Mark, I'm not sure if it is a chin strap or just a strange helmet detail which allows a view of his beard or chin through a 'gap'. This archaic pottery image is more difficult to decipher. As Chrimes points out, although found at Sparta, it does not necessarily depict Spartans (although it may do) and the animal-clad warrior probably wouldn't be a Skiritai at that point - but nevertheless, is perhaps indicative of how the latter might have been equipped early on. His companions are wearing bell cuirasses typical of that period so we know this is long before the classical period. Of course during the mid-sixth century not just the Spartans would have worn long hair (others may still be doing so) and also the Boiotian shield would perhaps have still been more widely in use? I really don't know.

[Dan Howard]

I've lost the point of the thread. What is your question? Does wearing an animal pelt count as armour? Yes I suppose it does but it depends on the animal. Leopard skin wouldn't provide any better protection than a woollen tunic. IMO the above fighter is not wearing armour at all, just animal-skin clothing. Oxhide would be a better choice for armour.

I'd love a reference in the Iliad where Homer talks about animal skins being worn as armour.

[Ghostmojo]

My question was about muscled leather cuirasses (right at the top of the page as you might expect :lol: ). However, as things developed and the conversation seemed to broaden (as is often the case), I decided to bring in an aside about other forms of 'armour' ...

[Dan Howard]

Just answered my own question about Homeric leather armour. There are a few references to leather helmets but this is the only reference to leather armour that I can find.

καὶ Σιμόεις, ὅθι πολλὰ βοάγρια καὶ τρυφάλειαι [Iliad, 12.22]

Lattimore's translation: "and Simoeis, where much ox-hide armour and helmets were tumbled"

I'd like to know how Chrimes could conclude that wearing animal skins with the hair left on was a "typical part of Homeric military equipment".

[Matthew Amt]

Could that fellow in the animal skin on the vase be Herakles? It might help explain some of the other "archaic" (not necessarily "Archaic"!) features.

Matthew

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Can't say with certainty that he isn't,but usually Heracles is shown without a helmet and with a rather big male lion skin,most often worn over his head. This is not universal,but since animal skins are often shown worn by soldiers other than Heracles,since we have no typical characteristic of him,we'd rather sume that he's an anonymous soldier.
Throwing a stone...wasn't Mardonios killed by a Spartan throwing a stone at him?
Khairete
Giannis