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Roman Heavy Cavalry Fighting Techniques
#61
Quote:That would surely be interesting, because I'm told left and right that cavalry formations are not supposed to be able to do that.


Debate aside why is it that people are so uptight, almost anal, in their frentic insistence that horses can't do that?

Note: I'm not slamming anyone, I've just noticed that so many people insist on that horses can't do that and they're uptight for lack of a better term about that I can't help but wonder why.
Ben.
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#62
Well, possibly the passage does not say that it is a line pushing against a line,
rather the mass of calvery are entangled....I know I am possibly being facietious,
but there it is... Smile perhaps some people cannot see beyond the idea of it being a line pushing against line, which would be more applicable to infantry??

Some people once insisted the world was flat and woe be to anyone who disagreed!! :roll: :lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#63
Quote:Galloping at speed into an enemy formation en masse simply never happened in all history. It could not, for all sorts of reasons. (as a general rule)
I thought I might briefly revive this thread, to add a couple of bits of information that some might find interesting.

The belief that horses would not or could not charge against solid bodies of disciplined infantry is often repeated, and seems reasonable as a general rule. However, I've recently come across a couple of examples of precisely this event - both of them involve light cavalry rather than heavy, but they might perhaps illustrate what horses could achieve if properly handled (or mishandled Confusedhock: )

Both are from the 19th century, but involve bayonets and swords, so the comparison to ancient warfare might not be inapposite - there have been a number of such examples cited as contrary evidence already on this thread. These are from Richard Holmes' Sahib: The British Soldier in India.


1. Khushab, 1856. 3rd Bombay Light Cavalry, led by two British officers named Moore, against a Persian infantry square (the Persians at this date being trained and armed after the European model).

Quote:"...riding knee to knee, with spurs at their horses flanks, as if racing after a dog... they tore down upon the nearest face of the devoted square... Daunted by the flashes and the noise and the crackle of musketry, the younger Moore's horse swerved as they came up. Dropping his sword and letting it hang by the knot at the wrist, he caught up the reins in both hands, screwed the horse's head straight, and then coolly, as if riding a fence, leaped him straight into the square... Of course the horse fell stone dead upon the bayonets; so did his brother's, ridden with equal courage and determination...
The barrier once broken, and the entrance once made, in and through it poured our troops... Out of five hundred Persian soldiers... who composed that fateful square, only twenty escaped to tell the tale of their own destruction."
(Quote from the Marquess of Anglesey's History of the British Cavalry, Vol.II p.128)

Amazingly, both of the Moores survived the battle...


2. Aliwal, 1846. British 16th Lancers against a Sikh square, armed as before:

Quote:"We had to charge a square of infantry. At them we went, in bullets flying like a hailstorm. Right in front of us was a big sergeant, Henry Newsome. He was mounted on a grey charger, and with a shout of 'Hullo, boys, here goes for death or a commission,' forced his horse right over the front rank of kneeling men, bristling with bayonets. As Newsome dashed forward he leant over and grasped one of the enemy's standards, but fell from his horse pierced by 19 bayonet wounds. Into the gap made by Newsome we dashed, but they made fearful havoc among us... Back we went through the disorganised square, the Sikhs peppering us from all directions... We retired to our own line."
(Quoted by Anglesey ibid Vol I p.268)

In this case the square seems to have survived, although broken. Both cases involve near-suicidal leaps against the enemy line (suicidal for the horse in particular, although presumably the animal would not have been intending this!), but perhaps demonstrate that such an attack delivered at speed, if promptly followed up, could and sometimes did succeed.

- Nathan
Nathan Ross
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#64
Yes, Im sure a horse can and did charge into a mass of infantry.
But the example confirms my belief that they would not survive.
And it would only succeed in breaking the enemy formation, if, it was a thin line, not backed up by succeeding ranks and formation!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#65
Quote:
Paullus Scipio post=282646 Wrote:Galloping at speed into an enemy formation en masse simply never happened in all history. It could not, for all sorts of reasons. (as a general rule)
I thought I might briefly revive this thread, to add a couple of bits of information that some might find interesting.
Despite the above quote this was discussed at length here, and I believe the conclusion was always that horses would do so, but at great cost to the cavalry unit.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#66
How much room would it take for a galloping horse to stop or change direction? Would it even be possible for a lancer to thrust at full speed and still avoid colliding with the enemy?
Henry O.
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#67
I saw one do an emergency stop last weekend!! :mrgreen:
Maybe not at full gallop...
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#68
I guess the space needed for a full stop will depend entirely on the circumstances: speed of the horse and the terrain: level or a slope, sand or grass, etc.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#69
Hi, I was reading with interest this debate and although this doesn't refer to Roman Cavalry but Iazyges I couldn't help remembering Cassius Dio describing "The Battle On The Ice" in book 7 when the Sarmatians crossed the Danube on a winter campaign of raiding and he stated that the Iazyges knowing that they were being pursued by a Roman force actually waited for the Romans to engage them so they were fairly confident of defeating this force.

Quote:The Iazyges were conquered by the Romans on land at this time and later on the river. By this I do not mean that any naval battle took place, but that the Romans pursued them as they fled over the frozen Ister and fought there as on dry land. The Iazyges, perceiving that they were being pursued, awaited their opponents' onset, expecting to overcome them easily, as the others were not accustomed to the ice. Accordingly, some of the barbarians dashed straight at them, while others rode round to attack their flanks, as their horses had been trained to run safely even over a surface of this kind. The Romans upon observing this were not alarmed, but formed in a compact body, facing all their foes at once, and most of them laid down their shields and rested one foot upon them, so that they might not slip so much; and thus they received the enemy's charge. Some seized the bridles, others the shields and spearshafts of their assailants, and drew the men toward them; and thus, becoming involved in close conflict, they knocked down both men and horses, since the barbarians by reason of their momentum could no longer keep from slipping. The Romans, to be sure, also slipped; but in case one of them fell on his back, he would drag his adversary down on top of him and then with his feet would hurl him backwards, as in a wrestling match, and so would get on top of him; and if one fell on his face, he would actually seize with his teeth his antagonist, who had fallen first. For the barbarians, being unused to a contest of this sort, and having lighter equipment, were unable to resist, so that but few escaped out of a large force.

I am no expert on cavalry matters unlike a lot of gentlemen on this site but while I was reading all the posts on this topic I couldn't help but think of this piece from Dio. Sorry for barging in so late but I don't know whether the icy conditions beat the Iazyges or stout defence by the Romans, probably both.

Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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