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tips for Lacing Loops
#1
I've been looking through the website and doing some searches, but a lot of what comes up is dead links, so I'm hoping to just get a quick direct answer.

I'm making lorica lacing loops from a brass(yes, realy brass. already checked it) kick plate. seems to be in the .05-.06" range(judging by other sheet of known thickness. Don't have my mic handy) So I'm planning on just cutting them out from the stock and rolling the loop. Currently looking at an adbrasive wheel in my rotozip cutter with flex shaft attachment. I put together a pattern on paper to conserve brass by flipping each loop so they nest on the sheet.

I figure I'll do the parrelel cuts and then the 45 degrees to break the loops apart.

Does that sounds like a good way to go about it? I'm pretty confident in it working, but wanted to double check to make sure I wasn't missing something about working with brass. Most of my experience has been in steel.
Shawn
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#2
Ave!

That's exactly how I made them for years, never had a problem. These days, though, I'd be more likely to make them from thin sheet, the sides of one half the length folded over each other and then curled for the loop:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/loops1.jpg

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html

Gotta be a lot quicker! Plenty strong enough, too. The other option is to use rod and flatten one end, but that is tricky! Takes lots of annealing, too. And if your rod is thick enough to make a wide enough baseplate, it's too thick for the loop! So you have to grind or file them down thinner. Much pain. But I do use that method for making replacements for the vertical hooks on my Corbridge type B as they break.

Good luck!

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#3
Thank you Matthew. I was pretty sure I wasn't missing anything. but it helps to confirm.

I did see the folding over method, but the kick plate I'm using was free. Come to think of it, the stainless steel plates also came from a free kick plate. Wierd.

I started to cut the kick plate up and have found the abrasice disks do pretty well, but I can not recommend the flex shaft attachment for a rotozip. I had two of them tonight and both stopped working in minutes. First one I think the shaft seperated inside because when it was on the tool, it stopped turning the wheel before it got more than 2 inches of cut. Took that one back and got a replacement. that one got maybe 10 inches of cutting done when the shaft sheard completely off. Took that one back too. I guess I'll have to dig up a dremel and use that. but I feel pretty good that I'll be able to get these loops knocked out when I have a working tool.

And based on the reading I've done, it sounds like the suits I'm making should be good for the christmas play they are intended for and the Boffer game I play.
Shawn
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#4
Hoo, sorry to hear about your flex-shaft trouble! I've never had one, though I've certainly worn out a Dremel in my time. To speed things up, cut as much as you can with hand snips (Wiss brand, offset or bulldogs). You should be able to do the parallel sides easily, basically making a strip with a "fringe" along both edges. Then just cut the angled part where the two sides nest together with the rototool, as planned.

STAINLESS STEEL??!? Blasphemer! Heretic! Unclean! Tougher to work, too. It can be pretty easy to scrounge mild steel from trash piles and dumpsters, like old shelves. Burn the paint off, then shine up the outside and leave the inside fire-blackened as if black from the forge. Free is good!

Good luck!

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#5
you have no idea how much it actually amuses me to be called a heretic by you Matt.
And I know the stainless is not appropriate for doing the true historical re-enactment, but my primary focus is to have the armour available for My church at Christmas time and to be dug out every so often for the larp that legend(at least has it) was named for you. So the low maintenance of not having to chase rust is very appealling.

Also, where I'm at, I can get stainless sheet from a local junkyard cheaper than I can get Mild from my steel distributor. It's weird I know, but that's what I've found. The junkyard I go to rarely has mild steel except as heavy plate, so the stainless(often from commercial kitchen builds) works good for me.

Thank you for both your advice here and for the Legio Website. It has also been a great help with getting these suits together.
Shawn
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#6
Shawn.

I may also be termed a heretic for I have in the past made many Segmentata from stainless steel 0-9mm (20 gauge) in fact I have even used 0-6mm (22 gauge)
What I have come up against are those who would say no no!!! it has to be mild steel, where in the world did anyone get the idea that the Romans used mild steel I wonder.

It would have been raw smelted iron beaten down and even rolled into sheet, that would have given a more grey colour to the finished armour and not the highly reflective shine that one gets from mild or stainless.
There was a method that I used for any lorica segmentata and in particular stainless this is where I would hammer out all the curved surfaces on a rough iron block, which not only puts a more authentic finish to the plates but gives them a stressed and greater strength where in fact I'd match my 22 gauge against any simple curved 20 gauge any day.
I think what can be said about re-enactment gear is if it looks right it is alright, so in a nutshell I do not think there can truely be any argument over what metal as long as it looks the part.
Brian Stobbs
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#7
I dont see a problem with making certain elements of the segmentata out of the thinner steel (like 20 or 22 guage). The lesser shoulder guards could be made from the thinner stuff and it wouldn't affect the structure considerably. As for the whole stainless thing, I suppose that depends on your own standard of authenticity. Stainless steel has a much higher nickel content than milds steel (the closest thing we have to iron, now). Stainless never oxidizes. A little bit of rust (normal, unavoidable oxidation even after normal polishing) is not only acceptable in my opinion, but more authentic. Stainless is also "harder" so you can use thinner sheets and it will be harder. I wouldn't do it myself, but thats just my opinion.

As to the original question - I personally think the folded edge type Mr Amt mentioned are better because they aren't as "sharp" on the laces as plain sheet. Thats just my opinion. They can be made quickly too! Put it in a vice, hammer over the edge, flip it over, repeat, and curl it into shape. Folding the brass makes it harder and very strong!
MARCVS VELIVS AVITVS (Reid Neilsen)
LEGIO VII GEMINA FELIX
"SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERUDITIONIS HABES"

http://www.whitemountainforge.com
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#8
That's a good point about the edges not being sharp. Not that the stinking laces won't break anyway... Generally it is found that girdle plates were thinner than the shoulder sections, which is how much armor through history was made (thickest around the shoulder area). So you could use 18-ga for the shoulder sections and 20-ga for the girdle plates, for example.

I also think stainless steel for armor for a church theater group (or ANY theater group!) is a perfectly good idea! An hour of sweat and a year in the back of the closet would wreck mild steel armor. Heck, might be a good idea to use nylon straps instead of leather! Try that on *my* reenactment field, though, and I WILL FIND YOU...

Vale,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#9
Quote:Shawn.

I may also be termed a heretic for I have in the past made many Segmentata from stainless steel 0-9mm (20 gauge) in fact I have even used 0-6mm (22 gauge)
What I have come up against are those who would say no no!!! it has to be mild steel, where in the world did anyone get the idea that the Romans used mild steel I wonder.

It would have been raw smelted iron beaten down and even rolled into sheet, that would have given a more grey colour to the finished armour and not the highly reflective shine that one gets from mild or stainless.
There was a method that I used for any lorica segmentata and in particular stainless this is where I would hammer out all the curved surfaces on a rough iron block, which not only puts a more authentic finish to the plates but gives them a stressed and greater strength where in fact I'd match my 22 gauge against any simple curved 20 gauge any day.
I think what can be said about re-enactment gear is if it looks right it is alright, so in a nutshell I do not think there can truely be any argument over what metal as long as it looks the part.

Actually, two pieces of Roman armour were metalurgicaly tested, one was found to be low carbon steel, while the other was a medium carbon steel.
The iron used for armour historically also wasn't quite like victorian/blacksmith wrought iron, it seems to have had slightly more carbon and a lower slag content.
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#10
If you use scotchbrite pads on stainless steel, it starts to look a lot like mild steel...
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