Luxor Late roman

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello

I have been in Egipt past days, and i have made some pictures of the late roman paints at the Luxor Temple.
I want to share with you. Here there are:







It's clearly visible the embroidereing ot tunics and saga, as the orbiculi and so. A golden buckle is visible, too.

[Robert Vermaat]

Thnaks Cesar! I knew them from Graham's books of course but they look wonderful.
Any idea what that wooden pole/post might be?

[Graham Sumner]

Thanks also Cesar.

Any idea what that wooden pole/post might be?

The newly restored images are interesting Robert because in the reconstruction drawings by Deckars made in the 1970's which I used in my book, you can see that the pole has been interpreted as part of a flag type standard held by the man in the centre with the yellowish cloak.

However as we can now see the pole is not held by him but comes up from the group below. The pole is also much thicker than one might expect but that could be because it is meant to indicate that the standard is in front of the rear group of figures. It may of course be something else and what are the objects in the top right?

Graham.

[Longovicium]

Wonderful pictures, Cesar. Thank you for posting them! The detail on the faces is amazing.

[A_Volpe]

Fantastic! Thanks for sharing, Cesar!!

My Duo Denarii on this wooden post thingy - My guess is it is depicting a pole holding up an awning that the Romans are standing under.

...Stay out of exposure from Ra's great power

I also find the very-close haircut a contrast to the Fayum portraits.

The whole image must have been spectacular to look at.

I am saddened that the Romans plastered over the Heiroglyphs, and now both are severely damaged. Although it just goes to show that the Romans and everyone else were willing to "recycle" and re-use structures and materials around them, not necessarily destroying them and building over them.

[Caballo]

Given that as far as I know these frescoes were painted during Diocletian's reign (. 22 December 244 – 3 December 311), does this put the date for complex orbiculi and clavii back into the third century?

[Cheyenne]

No, I would say these frescoes are much later - not sure who attributed them to Diocletian. The style of the painting is much later - possibly even late 5th/early 6th century.

[Caballo]

Thanks Claire!

[Robert Vermaat]

not sure who attributed them to Diocletian.

Graham Sumner, Roman Military Clothing (2), AD 200-400, pp. 15-16.

[Cheyenne]

I'll look that one up when I get back home but it looks too late for Diocletian. If they are from 300AD as mentioned by Auth (et all 2008), McFadden & Jones etc then we need to consider other tunics that look similar to these as possible earlier examples of coptic textile working. most of the monochrome decorative coptic dress of the day is simply listed in Museum collections as '4th century' - It might mean we have to say they could be third century.

One particular re-interpretation could be that they are attributed to Diocletian but were drawn later, as is a common practice of dressing the figures in the contemporary dress of the day. Unless some of the plaster could be dated from its organic materials, or an xray taken of the picture to ascertain if the figures have been 'touched up' over time, we have no real way of knowing the precise dates.

An interesting aside however, I was chatting to Frances Pritchard at the Whitworth in Manchester and she was saying that the wide cuffed tunic they keep there could well have been made earlier than is currently listed in the Museum catalogue. I think they are trying to get some additional analysis done on some of the fibres of the garment.

Another interpretation could be that these images represent an elite who had restricted access to certain patterns and designs and they didn't filter through to the ranks until much later.

Jury is out for me... but i'm interested to know more - i'll have to dig out Grahams book again...

[Graham Sumner]

Hi

This time it really does help if you can see the whole picture and not just the bit that survives and has been restored as shown above. The central scene according to the Victorian water-colour copies made when the paintings were discovered shows the four Tetrarchs in purple cloaks. Those short cropped Tetrarchic hairstyles are also another clue.

The temple at Luxor was converted into a Roman fort in the reign of Diocletian. You can, or you could when I was there in 1993, still see the remains of the bastions. I forget when Diocletian was in Egypt exactly but the paintings could be early fourth century.

Tunics decorated with anything other than simple clavi start to appear in contemporary art along with the long sleeved type in the latter first half of the third century. When of course they actually appeared in reality is open to speculation but I wouldn't go back too much further in time myself.

As far as I know the earliest find of a decorated tunic with anything other than simple clavi also dates to this period with the tunic remains from Palmyra. Aitor Iriarte had a tunic based on the Palmyra fragment. Both Clavi and Orbiculi had interlaced designs.

Some other simple designs have been dated to the late third century. They do get more and more complex as time progresses.

There is more info on the fresco in 'Roman Military Dress' rather than the older Osprey book, with references to articles that go into even more detail on both the frescoes and the fort itself if you are interested.

Graham.

[Peroni]

I based my first late 3rd/early 4th Century tunic on this fresco. I never did get around to decorating the black orbiculi though!

Thanks César!

[John Conyard]

The style of the painting is very definitely late 3rd/early 4th century. I find the early 4th century a particularly interesting period in terms of clothing and equipment.

The early simple clavi design on a tunica dalmatica in the Victoria and Albert Museum is thought to have been woven in Akhmim, an important weaving centre in Upper Egypt. Flying thread brocading produced patterns perhaps influenced by Palmyrene originals and similar decorated bands have been excavated from Palmyra, predating AD 273 when the city was destroyed. Such designs appear in Egypt around the same time or soon afterwards.

[attachment=1077]2006AR0480_jpg_l.jpg[/attachment]

It is a design that is relatively well known since the tunic was part of the 2006 Constantine exhibition. It is simple to reproduce for the re-enactor, and it matches the early 4th century orbiculi in the Textile Museum, Washington D.C. used by Comitatus.

http://comitatus.net/gallerydressinfantry.html



It certainly matches Peroni's helmet very nicely, as well as a Deurne helmet.

I would like to know more about the use of lappets on scale in the mid and late period, as well as the decline in use of broad baldrics and 3rd century belt fittings. Few typically late Roman fittings are found on the Wall perhaps suggesting the continued use of old fashioned fittings. Whatever, I suspect such typically 3rd century items could have made it into the 4th century, just about. :-)

[Cheyenne]

Palmyran decorative bands tend to show a 'jacquard' re-occuring pattern. Comparative motifs on reliefs in the national Museum in Damascus suggest that a simple design was used and copied throughout the decoration used on tunics. Do we have any idea if the motifs from the Luxor frescoes had just geometric patterns or anphropomorphic figures as well?

[ValentinianVictrix]

Anyone who is visiting London should take a trip to the Victoria & Albert (V&A) museum. Once your through the main doors turn right and go into the hall there. On the wall to your right you will see several Late Roman tunics that came from grave sites, they are intact and quite clearly show typical applied patches. Very vibrant colours still.

Here are some links-
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O11959...c/?print=1

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O93452/panel-from-a/

http://images.vam.ac.uk/item/O119606/tunic/