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Children -Re-enactment on the March
#31
Everyone is being very helpful, but I think I have the kids convinced that carbatinae are the more useful, and realistic, shoes for them. I need one or two reliable vendors who can ship to the States.

For my own kit I will need an accurate military shoe as those on Fectio and Comitatus.

I don't pretend to be a craftsman, and anyway, I don't have the time to be one. You guys who have kids involved, please advise the better vendors we can order from. Thanks!
Mike Benedict
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#32
Quote:
Vortigern Studies:33arx5kk Wrote:Btw, I don't recommend shoes without soles for older children, as they need more support for their developing feet.
Good thing our ancestors didn't know that, or the kids might not have been able to walk. :roll:

Call that a good thing? Too bad the Romans did not invent the heel, it would have saved them from a lot of backpain.
Quote: Quite frankly the amount of walking that will be done in them is unlikely to adversely affect a child's feet (assuming they don't have a preexisting condition).
Exactly. Which is how we found out that my son and daughter needed support soles.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#33
To support our ancestors approach to foot care, we must understand that authentic shoes sometimes cause foot problems and problems with posture, and that modern shoes with heels do exactly the same thing. Authentic shoes helped solve my problems with tendonitis caused by football boots and sports shoes. But they may not help everybody.

I repair a lot of re-enactment footwear. It is easy to see how the person walks from the wear pattern on their shoes. The sole can be built up and made to suit each person as they would have been in the past. But in our modern society we too often feel one design should fit everybody. Even if we buy shoes from re-enactment markets, light little people can often get away with sports insoles placed inside the shoe. Something I would not reccomend for adults.

When designing footwear for my sons I generally consider the protection the shoes will offer on hard surfaces, when playing football, and how easy they are for the boys to do up and take off.

This isn't really rocket science.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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#34
Quote:
M. Demetrius:uge4n259 Wrote:No, carbatinae are one-piece, soft soles, like moccasins, more or less. No hobnails. We do add a saddle-leather sole, since we have lots of thorns on everything from vines and trees to grass and cactus here in Texas, but it isn't historically necessary, and from what I've seen, the originals didn't usually have that outer sole.
http://www.andyburke.co.uk/ancient.htm

To my knowledge, that aren't crbatinae, but shoes from the pre-Roman period.

That's correct jvrjenivs.
I recomend people who want to buy iron age footwear
http://www.homeindhoven.nl/historischew ... 20a&page=1
The size is the price (EU continental that is).
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#35
Quote:Call that a good thing? Too bad the Romans did not invent the heel, it would have saved them from a lot of backpain.

I was actually being sarcastic. It always strikes me as a very myopic modern view that our (modern) ways are better and that our ancestors equipment was so inferior to actually be so dangerous as to cause deformity. Now, in some extreme or long term cases this was indeed the case but certainly not for occasional footwear use.

The fact of the matter is that walking in period shoes is not the same as walking in modern footwear. Each style has it's advantages and limitations, and each was designed for different environments.
[Image: dirttagline.jpg]
Gobae - The Blacksmith
aka Dan Crowther
Ancient Celtic Clans
Re: Living History Blog
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#36
They are sold as carbatinae....they seem to be a multi cultural shoe not restricted to the Romans.

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... mshoe2.htm
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#37
Quote:They are sold as carabatinae....they seem to be a multi cultural shoe not restricted to the Romans.

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... mshoe2.htm

A infamous trooper helmet also is sold as a 'proper reconstruction of a roman legionairy helmet', but does that tell us anything? I think footwear is one of the most neglected items in personal clothing among re-enactors. A carbatinae indeed is a roman shoe, of civilian use and from leater, but the shoes often sold as such aren't carbatinae. They are a iron age model and shoes got much improved in Roman times.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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#38
I have the ones Adrian sells. I can't speak about other vendors or makers Jurjen.
But I think it is plain enough to seeIf you look at this link you will see they offer detailed information on shoe construction, not 'trooper helm quality'.
Sorry to hear you have fallen foul of inauthentic shoes though. Ade's are quite nice though and made from one piece!
Not sure if they go smaller than size 5's.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#39
Quote:Not sure if they go smaller than size 5's.

You talking about the "Iron age" carbatinae?
They start from size 13.
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#40
Quote:I have the ones Adrian sells. I can't speak about other vendors or makers Jurjen.
But I think it is plain enough to seIf you look at this link you will see they offer detailed information on shoe construction, not 'trooper helm quality'.
Sorry to hear you have fallen foul of inauthentic shoes though. Ade's are quite nice though and made from one piece!

We're talking about these, right? I really have to say I disagree with you and Adrian that these are carbatinae. But yeah, my first pair of 'historical' shoes was also such a pair. It's not they are inauthentic, they are, but for another period of time! They are simply pre-Roman.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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#41
Cannot see your link, but,
A. Lets remember the Romans were part of the iron age.
B. The carbatinae are a multi-culturaland long lived shoe. Even into the Viking age.

Another example.
http://mediomatrici.gaulois.over-blog.c ... 76725.html
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#42
Quote:Cannot see your link, but,
A. Lets remember the Romans were part of the iron age.
B. The carbatinae are a multi-culturaland long lived shoe. Even into the Viking age.

Another example.
http://mediomatrici.gaulois.over-blog.c ... 76725.html

Hi Byron,
I think we should stop discussion, as it wouldn't lead anywhere. I'm still not convinced, as you come up again with a site from re-enactors, where no source is mentioned. As I tried to say all examples we know of this pattern are from much earlier period. Prehistoric/pre-Roman that is. But you can use them, if you like!
Now enough over these shoes. In my opinion we can't support that type of footwear for the Roman period.

On your other points.
A) I don't agree either. The iron age is the last of the pre-historic period. i.e. it ends with Roman conquest. Thus when stating it is an iron age shoe, that means it's from before Roman conquest, so before Ceasar came to the north, if we talk about gallia, germania and britannia, where we know this type of shoe from the archeological record.
B) I din't say anything about the historical term carbatinae. It's a multitcultural shoe indeed. I only say that we have no proof of this being used in the Roman period, so we've better examples to name 'cabartinae'. All I said was about the reproductions of a piece from the pre-Roman archeological record. Hope this makes it clear.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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#43
Well I see you are not offering a link to archaeological facts either, at least not one I can see, but I have heard from a few well informed individuals and seen
these as in use into the Viking age.
But you are well intitled to you opinion too. Smile
I try to take mine from as many sources as possible then make my mind up.

Actually there is reference to someone in my first link, who the forum constructor is happy to mention.

Also below

http://www.leder-peter.de/carbatinae.php
the relief shown here looks to be the same shoe, and while I cannot read German, this looks to be non-prehistoric relief
used in the makers Website.

I do see other shoes also called this name, but this shoe is identical to one used in the Viking age as well, so it cannot be a totally 'pre-historic' shoe.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#44
Quote:Speaking of Roman games, where can I get them or can I make them? Are there books with how games were played? My 10 year old daughter is getting more interested in ancient history especially since I started in this hobby.

Make them! Better still, get you children making them - some of the most successful workshops I've done with the school archaeology club I run have been making and playing board games.

Boards can inked or painted onto wood, leather or textile, or scratched onto slate, or ceramic (you could use air-drying earthenware clay, although I think proper fired clay may be stronger). The ones with words instead of squares are fun http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/showcase/boardgames4.html . You could even scratch them into the earth and use stones as counters!

Pieces could also be ceramic, pebbles (get them searching for sets of similarly-sized flat pebbles in two colours - that will keep them busy for a while!) or you could give them files and bits of broken earthenware and get them to file them to shape, very authentic. There are also glass counters, and although nice authentic ones by the Roman Glassmakers are obviously preferable http://www.romanglassmakers.co.uk/games.htm (and they have some information on playing the games on this site), at a pinch you could use the ones sold to put in flower vases.

I also cut up some 1 cm square wooden rod on a bandsaw for them to make dice, and they also made clay marbles to play 'nuts', which if nothing else, proved to them that max effort = max success - if they spent some time making perfect round marbles, they won more often than the people who didn't take so much trouble! (They tried actual nuts as well, but they were rubbish.)

They really enjoyed playing the games as well (they were aged 8-11). I wasn't surprised that they did well at latrunculi and the versions of nine-men's morris, but some of them got really good at tabula and duodecim scriptorum as well, which are more complicated and strategic.

These are useful websites:
http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/showcase/boardgames.html (this one has a very good reading list)
http://www.aerobiologicalengineering.co ... oardGames/

Back to the original post, re-enactment is wonderful for children, it teaches them history, practical skills, to be sociable and work together, it gives them enormous confidence and gets them out into the fresh air, having experiences that their frends stuck in front of TVs and computers can only dream of. The Vicus kids (all ages) are a brilliant bunch, and a valued and hugely entertaining part of the group.
Louise Mumford
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#45
Grandson's Billy (XVII) and Chris (VII) stand watch in the snow at the Castra gate.
Preparing to attend Castra Lafe next month!
[attachment=142]MVC-005S_2011-02-07.JPG[/attachment]


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John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
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