Exploration?

[Dominicus]

I know this has been bounced around before in old posts,but I had to put a fresh start on anyways. I know that the Romans were actually Not very big into Exploration,or sending long expensive voyages into the unknown. Especially if there was no guaranteed profit for the expedition. I am familiar with the trans-Atlantic debate as to whether or not it was possible or impossible for the Romans to make such a journey. Although I do recall reading how in the early years they were not certain if Britain was actually an island,or indeed a whole other continent onto itself. And I cant rightly recall right now who its was that circumnavigated it to prove that it was just a huge island. They also seem to have had trouble with its geographical placement in relation to Spain.

We do know that they obviously sailed the North Sea above Gaul & Germania,but how far and familiar were they with Scandanavia and the Jutland area? I seem to hear that Romans supossedly never invaded Russian lands.Then what about the Roman fleet in the Black Sea region,they had no knowledge nor ever landed on the far side? I find it hard to buy into that one.For now,I wont touch the 'Romans in China' debate,but we know for certain there was regular trade with India,but how far down into Africa do we think they went? I know Nero was planning an invasion of Ethyopia that was blown off.

Roman exploration,knowledge and view of faraway lands has always interested me. Any opinions are welcomed.

[Arminius Primus]

Ave Fratres!

Many years ago, when I was in Bangkok, I toured the national museum there. It had, at that time. a Roman lamp on display that was found in Thailand. How did a lamp get that far afield? No idea but I always thought it was pretty remarkable.

Holiday Greetings to all from a damp Balkans, Arminius Primus aka Al

[Epictetus]

The Romans were a very practical people. I think they explored if there was a good reason for it – they didn’t explore simply to see what was over the horizon.

A good example of this is the expedition sent by Nero to the Baltic in search of amber. Some have guessed they made it at least as far as the mouth of the Vistula in present-day Poland.

From Carnuntum in Pannonia, to the coasts of Germany from which the amber is brought, is a distance of about six hundred miles, a fact which has been only very recently ascertained; and there is still living a member of the equestrian order, who was sent thither by Julianus, the manager of the gladiatorial exhibitions for the Emperor Nero, to procure a supply of this article. Traversing the coasts of that country and visiting the various markets there, he brought back amber, in such vast quantities, as to admit of the nets, which are used for protecting the podium against the wild beasts, being studded with amber.

Pliny, Natural History, 37.11.3

I think Roman traders were familiar with a fair amount of the land outside the borders. Caesar’s Gallic War is full of references of him quizzing merchants about the geography or the tribes living there.

Some miscellaneous thoughts:

Roman goods have been found in some quantity far outside the borders, such as in Denmark. Most often archaeologists think these items travelled via trade and don’t necessarily indicate the presence of Romans.

Pytheas of Massila knew that Britain was an island as early as the 4th century BC (and perhaps even circumnavigated it himself), so maybe some Romans knew this as well before they even reached it.

The Greeks had colonies on the northern shore of the Black Sea which were taken over by the Romans. I assume they were familiar with the interior to some extent.

[Vincula]

Many years ago, when I was in Bangkok, I toured the national museum there. It had, at that time. a Roman lamp on display that was found in Thailand. How did a lamp get that far afield? No idea but I always thought it was pretty remarkable.

The Cleveland Museum of Art has some nice Roman pottery too.

[M. Demetrius]

I think Roman traders were familiar with a fair amount of the land outside the borders.

Of course, they also traded with people who traded with other people, so things like a Roman lamp could have changed hands a few times before reaching present-day Thailand. Some would be curiosities, some might be valuable enough to warrant another contact to establish trade lines, but it might also be difficult to find a particular trader, as communications of that type were not very efficient. "Say, do you remember that fellow in the red wool tunic? I traded him a piece of ebony for a little clay lamp. People like that lamp, and I'd like to get some more. Anybody know where he went? I think his name was M'harkoos something or other. Said he was from Khalabreeah, wherever that is."

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

Roman goods have been found in some quantity far outside the borders, such as in Denmark. Most often archaeologists think these items travelled via trade and don’t necessarily indicate the presence of Romans.

As for the artifacts found in North Germany and Denmark these got there not only by trade but also by Germanic men returning home after they had served as auxiliaries in the Roman army. They brought with them not only parts of their equipment such as military belts but also other goods they came to like during their time in the Roman Empire.

Also raiding Germanic people brought back valuable goods home. So it is not surprising to find Roman artifacts in regions close to the Roman Empire but not being part of the Empire.

[Dominicus]

Thanks for the posts all! I do seem remember reading how at some time during the later Republic,after the Fall of Carthage-(HA,HA!),how an expedition was sent down into Tunisia to see how many weeks it took to "find the ocean". But they apparently after who knows how far they marched,never got past the Atlas Mountains region and decided to turn around. I think I read that they were slightly alarmed when trying to calculate the distance in their miles and there still being no end in sight! Apparently the sheer potential size of the earth itself started to spook them,so they started smudging the numbers in the reports.

It appears the Romans had a certain format of the world in which far to the north it was harsh cold and ice,(and somewhere up there Thule/Hyperboria),far to the south was scorching heat and deserts,and in the middle running roughly from west to east was the 'temperate zone' the only place where 'civilization' could thrive. And sorrounding the whole Earth is the massive outer ocean,and beyond that....????

Monsters and Moonmen!-lol

[M. Demetrius]

and beyond that....????

Here there be dragons.

[Dominicus]

Speaking of Dragons,what about the legend of how the Romans advancing on the city of Carthage were forced to fight a Dragon(s) outside the walls? Wondered about that,or at least the origin of the tale.

[Q Rutilius]

I cannot recall the reference, and I've been looking at the bookshelf too hoping it would jar my memory, but was it Caesar (or maybe Tacitus) who describes Britain as being a triangle?

[Epictetus]

The story about the dragon may have originated with Livy (or his sources), believe it or not.

Attilius Regulus, consul, having overcome the Carthaginians in a sea-fight, passes over into Africa: kills a serpent of prodigious magnitude, with great loss of his own men.

Livy, 18

Later the tale seems to have been embellished.

I think a number of writers say that Britain is triangular. They may be using an older source, like the 4th century BC Pytheas of Massalia.

The natural shape of the island is triangular, and one side lies opposite to Gaul.

Caesar, Gallic War, 5.13

Britain is triangular in shape, very much as is Sicily, but its sides are not equal.

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History, 5.21

Tacitus gives another example of its shape. He may have had more recent information to use in his writing.

Livy and Fabius Rusticus, the most graphic of ancient and modern writers respectively, have likened the shape of Britain as a whole to an elongated shoulder-blade or to an axe-head. This is in fact its shape up to the borders of Caledonia, whence also this idea has been extended to the whole; but when you cross the border a vast and irregular tract of land runs out forming the final stretch of coast-line and eventually tapers as it were into a wedge. It was only under Agricola that the Roman fleet for the first time rounded this coast, the coast of the remotest sea, and established the insularity of Britain...

Tacitus, Agricola, 10

[M. Demetrius]

Good finds, Ep! I'll bet that's what they were looking for, and more. :!:

[Q Rutilius]

Wow!.......Yes,that is what I was thinking of (re:Caesar.....and Tacitus too).....Where else can you post a half remembered reference and get so many high quality answers?
RAT rules!

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Adam

You might like to read

'The World the Romans knew', by N.H. Sitwell

Published a few years back it may be out of date in some respects but I do not know of any major discoveries since then which have proved the Romans went much further than the lands he discusses.

Graham.

[Ron Andrea]

According to Wikipedia (which as serious as I can muster this morning :roll: ):

The [Canary] islands were visited by the Phoenicians, the Greeks, and the Carthaginians. According to the 1st century AD Roman author and philosopher Pliny the Elder, the archipelago was found to be uninhabited when visited by the Carthaginians under Hanno the Navigator, but that they saw ruins of great buildings.[25] This story may suggest that the islands were inhabited by other peoples prior to the Guanches. King Juba, Augustus's Roman protege, is credited with discovering the islands for the Western world. He dispatched a naval contingent to re-open the dye production facility at Mogador in what is now western Morocco in the early 1st century AD.[26] That same naval force was subsequently sent on an exploration of the Canary Islands, using Mogador as their mission base.

No report on dragon sightings. :wink: